Raven Grimassi - Praising Gavin and Yvonne Frost !
July 18, 2007 – 10:32 pmPart of the Cover Up? You decide.
Raven Grimassi entered into an agreement with me to speak at this year’s International Real Witches Ball 2007. He later pulled out claiming he was uncomfortable with the contents of a ritual I have titled A Sacrifice to Caring. He has expressed his many concerns and has been assured that each of his concerns were met. But he still pulled out. So I went looking to try and figure out what his true motivations could possibly be.
Encyclopedia Of Wicca & Witchcraft by Raven Grimassi on page 174 & 175
Speaking of Gavin and Yvonne Frost’s Church and School of Wicca, Raven Grimassi says:
“In 1972 the Church gained federal recognition of Wicca as a religion.”
I believe this is a lie told by Gavin and Yvonne Frost. You see it is my understanding of Constitutional law, that the Federal Government may not recognize or respect a religion itself. The IRS may grant tax exempt status to a religious organization, but to imply that the Government of the United States of America has an approved list of religions is an insult to the Bill of Rights and the First Amendment. How dare Gavin and Yvonne Frost say such a thing?
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.”
But that is not all Raven Gramassi has to say about Gavin and Yvonne Frost and the Church and School of Wicca. His encyclopedia reads better than their website and might serve to promote their Church and School of Wicca even more than the Frosts own efforts.
One of the things that is missing in the discussion of Gavin and Yvonne Frost is mention of what the Witches Bible contained or what the Good Witches Bible continues to contain. In fact, the only mention he gives of the Frost’s instructions of child molestion and rape is:
“Gavin and Yvonne reciently revised their controversial book The Witch’s Bible with a new title Good Witch’s Bible.”
Obviously he was aware of the, uh “controversial book”. In fact, I have several emails from him which state firmly that he knows about the content. But in writting his Encyclopedia of Wicca and Witchcraft he mentioned nothing. Instead he said the following of the Church and School of Wicca, basicly singing their praises without ever mentioning the instructions to molest, intoxicate, and rape children in the name of Wicca:
“This was the first use of “Wicca” to describe a religion based on a reconstruction of Witchcraft”
Uh what? As he was speaking of 1972, I have books published earlier with the word “Wicca” used to mean just that. Yes, Gardner did move back and forth between “Wica” and “Wicca”, but I have mimeographed newsletters older than 1972 where the word Wicca is used to denote what they claim they were the first to do.
“The associated School of Wicca, which the Frosts also founded, was the first Craft correspondence school.”
Uh what? So Raymond Buckland did not take correspondence courses from Gerald Gardner years earlier and neither did anyone else?
“Gavin and Yvonne have lived under a vow of poverty since 1972”
Ah, that explains the boat yard and other more recent businesses.
“In 1995 the Frosts directed and produced icon tapes of Pagan / Wiccan leaders and their thoughts, including Stewart and Janet Farrar, Isaac Bonewits, Oberon and Morning Glory Sell, and Margot Adler”
I would like to thank Raven Grimassi for further documenting some of the folk who have worked with and probably have financial ties to Gavin and Yvonne Frost.
“In their ongoing efforts the Frosts continue to educate prison and military authorities, helping Witches who get into trouble because of their belief in the Craft. Gavin and Yvonne share a common goal – to remove negative Wiccan stereotypes through work with the media and to dispel popular myths and stereotypes negatively related to Witches. The Frosts continue to work for equal rights for Witches and the Craft.”
I keep reading and rereading this material and I am baffled. If not for someone wanting to cover up what the Frosts said, if not for wanting to rewrite history, why would Raven Grimassi have omitted any reference to what the Frosts had written? Why would he provide not only praise, but what looks to be false praise?
Kind of makes a person say hmmmmmm…..
24 Responses to “Raven Grimassi - Praising Gavin and Yvonne Frost !”
… That is SO not the position that he shared when we were talking in email. I wonder when this was written and whether he had read their works at the time he wrote this or not… ?
By Solstice on Jul 21, 2007
Another interesting misrepresentation of my position. The entry in my encyclopedia was written by the Frosts, not by me. Llewellyn required that all entries about people and organizations be written by the person or agent of the organization. This was done to avoid lawsuits.
I was not the editor of the encyclopedia, so your problem is with Llewellyn.
By Grimassi on Jul 23, 2007
Grimassi said - “Another interesting misrepresentation of my position”.
Perhapse I missed something. Are you saying that although you are the author of the book that you are not responsible for its contents? That although the book that was published with your name does nothing but praise Gavin and Yvonne Frost, that you dissagree with that?
Did you mention something about the instructions to molest, intoxicate, and rape children in the name of Wicca and the editor took that out? Is that what you are saying?
Or are you saying it is not your fault becasue you did nothing?
By A.J. Drew on Jul 24, 2007
Nothing, that is, when the book with your name as the author was published praising Gavin and Yvonne Frost and not warning parents or children of what they have instructed concerning molesting, intoxicating, and raping children in the name of Wicca?
Which is it Raven Grimassi? What exactly is the case? Why not answer to what I am saying, the quotes I am providing? What are you afraid of?
By A.J. Drew on Jul 24, 2007
If you had bothered to read the intro to my encyclopedia you’d find my position very clear regarding the bios written by other people.
As I previously stated here, the bios were written by the people themselves, unless of course they were deceased, in which case I wrote the bios. Llewellyn provided a list of authors, which included the Frosts, and I was asked to invite others as well.
I was essentially the compiler of data for the encyclopedia, and the bios were delivered “as is” to Llewellyn when I had them in hand. I was not the editor of the bios or anything else. So no, I don’t hold myself responsible for what other people had to say about themselves. It’s their story to tell not mine.
I don’t feel that the encyclopedia praises the Frosts, it simply contains their bio entry. The encyclopedia was not a place for me to insert my views and politics into other people’s bio entries, or to place warnings with the bio of person’s entry. I saw myself as the compiler of data, not as the editor, the police or the Gestapo.
As I have repeatedly stated to you, I do not support the Frost’s position regarding the involvement of minors in any sexual or sensual setting. So move on.
By Grimassi on Jul 24, 2007
RG said: “I don’t feel that the encyclopedia praises the Frosts”
They wrote their own description but you dont think it praises them? Uh, have you read it?
RG said: “I saw myself as the compiler of data, not as the editor, the police or the Gestapo.”
You wrote a book called an Encyclopedia of Wicca and Witchcraft, but in responce to my pointing out that you said nothing about what the Frosts taught concerning molesting children in the name of Wicca, you say you are not the police or the Gestapo? So informing parents and folk interested in Wicca and Witchcraft about the truth and including that truth in a book called an Encyclopedia is a Gestapo like action? Wow……
I am amazed that you would say something like that openly. I had thought it was the job of a person writting an Encyclopedia to provide an Encyclopedic look at the subject.
Move on? Did you inform Llewellyn Worldwide of what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote when you put your name on the book? Did you say, uh guys: This is supposed to be an Encyclopedic view of Wicca and Witchcraft, maybe we should at least mention what Wikipedia.com says about these guys? Did you do ANYTHING when you had the chance?
Woman is being raped. Not your woman. Not your daughter. Not your problem. You don’t support it. That’s enough. You and your kind make me sick. Business as usual, not my fault, got my check?
BTW: I will be checking your story with Llewellyn and pointing out that you claim it was their fault.
It was all Llewellyn’s fault… Ye ye
By A.J. Drew on Jul 25, 2007
AJ, the book was written in 2000 (going by Amazon.com data) From what Raven told me via email, he was about as aware of the problematic writings of the Frosts as Aimee and Chrissie had been at first- (skimmed it way back when- thought it was BS- didn’t think much about it again until your campaign of awareness) Now that he’s become aware of the specifics (after the writing of the encyclopedia) he’s stated that he is adamantly against what the Frosts have written as he’s told me via email and phone *and* stated in the forums.
Rather than getting on his case saying things like:
“Woman is being raped. Not your woman. Not your daughter. Not your problem. You don’t support it. That’s enough. You and your kind make me sick. Business as usual, not my fault, got my check?”
How about you ask the bigger and more important/constructive question which is “OK- you say you don’t support it. What now? How are YOU going to -show- that you don’t support it and how are you planning on standing up and speaking out against such things in our community?”
Your message is being lost amongst the ranting. Pull back and try a more constructive approach.
By Solstice on Jul 25, 2007
Solstice, I thought the arguement was that he knew but it was Llewellyn’s fault and nobody wanted to be sued. Are you now saying that the arguement is that he didn’t know about it when he wrote the book?
Odd, I would think that if I were he I would have said just that rather than to say it was the publisher’s fault.
I think I am addressing the problem. People like Gavin and Yvonne Frost will always pop up. Here we have Raven Grimassi, a Llewellyn author, claiming that they are empowered by Llewellyn Worldwide one of the largest, if not the largest, publishers of modern pagan literature. Seems like that is a problem doesn’t it?
I apologize for my inabuility to anticipate the next arguement in this never changing game of back peddling.
By A.J. Drew on Jul 25, 2007
What I am saying is that constructive discussion and solution finding seldom occurs when one is throwing verbal assaults without listening to the person one is speaking with with an open (yet critical/thinking) mind.
Listen to what Mr. Grimassi is saying, ask the right questions and you might get somewhere. Tag him (and others) with the ranting and personal assaults of character (without sure-thing proof) and you are losing your audience. Sometimes diplomacy wins believe it or not.
I agree wholeheartedly that it disgusts me that Pagan leaders, authors, publishers etc. are standing behind the Frosts and are unwilling to stand up and say that what they wrote was *wrong* and to refuse to continue to support them (actively or through silence) but I think that by going after people’s jugulars over it it’s making them dig in further and be blinded to the REAL issue by focusing on YOU and your rants.
How about you try this…
(I’m sure you’re reading Mr. Grimassi- and are just as interested in a civil solution to all of this as I am) so if you would kindly take these questions as being addressed to you, I’d greatly appreciate it and hopefully we can get some clarity here.)
1. To my understanding you have in fact read the material in question and are now fully aware of the writings of the Frosts, correct?
2. Being aware of these writings, you’ve been clear in saying that you do NOT condone such things, correct?
3. After we’ve established points 1 and 2 in the affirmative (that you are both aware and NOT in support of the writings of the Frosts- specifically the points we are in contention with regarding child sexual initiation) what do YOU as a leader in the Pagan community, intend to do to make your disapproval known and to stand up against such things publically in our community? What actions do you propose to take to constructively combat the acceptance and support of the Frosts, their writings and teachings and others like them in the Pagan community?
4. Do you agree that doing nothing is acceptance through silence? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing- Edmund Burke”
Thank you.
By Solstice on Jul 25, 2007
Let’s do a reality check here. I never used the word “fault” in my remarks. I said if there is a problem (with what the bios say) that your problem is with Llewellyn, not with me. I know you like to twists words around and distort meanings, but if at all possible try and stay focused on reality.
I didn’t write the bios and I wasn’t the editor. You keep saying that I praised the Frosts in the encyclopedia, which is untrue. As I’ve repeatedly pointed out the words in their entry are their own, not mine.
I think the use of the word “fault” is not even applicable. This is an encyclopedia, and the Frosts appear in it because they are part of the history of the Craft.
Next, regarding the comment about my awareness of the Frost’s book, you’re once again confused about the facts. As Solstice pointed out, I mentioned having skim read the book back in the 70s. And I mentioned having read your links to the cited passages in the Frost’s book. So I had various levels of awareness at various times. However, even if I remembered every detail of the Frost’s book at the time of the encycloepdia, they still would have been included in the book, because that’s what an encyclopedia does, it includes people (not excludes them).
As to your allegations against the Frosts, take it up with the police. I’m not part of your vigilante justice mob, so quit trying to make a part of this vendetta of yours.
It’s clear to me that you need me to be a supporter of the Frosts, and so you’re working overtime to invent your own reality where you turn imagination into fact. I think what’s going on here is that you simply cannot swallow the fact that you’ve created a mess with this ritual idea of yours, and that all the invited authors walked away from you as a result. You refuse to accept any personal responsibilty for your role in the ways things have gone bad.
I think it’s time you faced the fact that you’ve given your community a black eye and you’ve dragged your supporters into the mud. That’s a terrible way to repay those who are loyal to you.
You seem to feel that I and others have to answer to you. Please be assured that I do have to answer to you, nor do I recognise you as having any authority over me. I am responding to your blog comments only because I feel that the truth should also be included admist your words, and since you’re clearly not going to do that, I have.
I mean no offense, but I find you to be a deeply disturbed individual and an irrational one. This makes it difficult for me to find any credibility in anything you say. Therefore it is pointless to continue communicating with you. I have no more to say to you. Engage in your bizarre rants all you wish. I’m done.
By Grimassi on Jul 25, 2007
This reply is for Solstice, as a courtesy, and it will be my last one for this blog.
You wrote: >>To my understanding you have in fact read the material in question and are now fully aware of the writings of the Frosts, correct?>Being aware of these writings, you’ve been clear in saying that you do NOT condone such things, correct?>After we’ve established points 1 and 2 in the affirmative (that you are both aware and NOT in support of the writings of the Frosts- specifically the points we are in contention with regarding child sexual initiation) what do YOU as a leader in the Pagan community, intend to do to make your disapproval known and to stand up against such things publically in our community?>What actions do you propose to take to constructively combat the acceptance and support of the Frosts, their writings and teachings and others like them in the Pagan community?>Do you agree that doing nothing is acceptance through silence? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing- Edmund Burke”
By Grimassi on Jul 25, 2007
Interesing, what I wrote in reply to Solstice didn’t appear, only her questions appeared. I’ll try again.
By Grimassi on Jul 25, 2007
This reply is to Solstice:
>>To my understanding you have in fact read the material in question and are now fully aware of the writings of the Frosts, correct?> Being aware of these writings, you’ve been clear in saying that you do NOT condone such things, correct?>After we’ve established points 1 and 2 in the affirmative (that you are both aware and NOT in support of the writings of the Frosts- specifically the points we are in contention with regarding child sexual initiation) what do YOU as a leader in the Pagan community, intend to do to make your disapproval known and to stand up against such things publically in our community? What actions do you propose to take to constructively combat the acceptance and support of the Frosts, their writings and teachings and others like them in the Pagan community?> Do you agree that doing nothing is acceptance through silence? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing- Edmund Burke”
By Grimassi on Jul 25, 2007
Nope, still won’t let me post the complete thing. I will assume I’m being blocked, and I’ll stop here. I’ll take my reply to the forum.
By Grimassi on Jul 25, 2007
I received the reply in email which I am posting here. I will respond with a reply when I have a bit more time to properly address it.
“>>To my understanding you have in fact read the material in question and are now fully aware of the writings of the Frosts, correct?> Being aware of these writings, you’ve been clear in saying that you do NOT condone such things, correct?>After we’ve established points 1 and 2 in the affirmative (that you are both aware and NOT in support of the writings of the Frosts- specifically the points we are in contention with regarding child sexual initiation) what do YOU as a leader in the Pagan community, intend to do to make your disapproval known and to stand up against such things publically in our community? What actions do you propose to take to constructively combat the acceptance and support of the Frosts, their writings and teachings and others like them in the Pagan community?> Do you agree that doing nothing is acceptance through silence? “All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing- Edmund Burke”
By Solstice on Jul 25, 2007
Weird- does the same thing for me…
By Solstice on Jul 25, 2007
We’ll do this the long way…
(RG—>)
Yes, I believe I’m completely up to date now. As I’ve repeatedly stated, I do not support the involvement of minors in any sexual or sensual setting. On this blog, and on the Pagan Nation, I have broken my own policy of not commenting publicly about the work of other authors. I have stated that I do not support the material in the Frost’s book, which deals with children in a sexual setting with adults.
If you’re asking if I intend to join the vendetta against the Frosts, no I am not going to invest my time and energy in that way. I have made my public statement regarding the Frost’s material for those who give a crap about my opinion.
I do not know the Frosts personally, and have only met them briefly at a couple of events. I do not know what their personal practices actually are, and therefore I’m not making any allegations against them. There are appropriate ways of dealing with this matter without resorting to lynch mobs and effigies. The rule of law in our country comes to mind as one example for a course of action. No, I don’t agree that doing nothing is a sign of support. People endure intolerable situations every day and don’t support the situation or the abuser.
(The above is from email by Mr. Grimassi- I took my quotes out of it thinking that it might let me post it? Let’s see how this goes. In any event- I will reply when I have a bit more time to do so.)
By Solstice on Jul 25, 2007
RG said: “I will assume I’m being blocked, and I’ll stop here. I’ll take my reply to the forum.”
So let me see if I understand this. Rather than thinking there is a post length limit, you believe the software is automaticly reading your post, stripping out what you are quoting from Solstice (the questions) and posting them properly but not posting your replies?
My thought is you have observed the limit and are using it to manipulate folk into believing you are being blocked or so you can cause trouble at PaganNation.com yet again. The discussion there is over per moderator warnings.
Solstice: Yep, making the post shorter did the trick. So would making it two part. Like much blog software, there seems to be a built in post limit. I will look into it when I get a chance. Thank you for demonstrating intelligence.
By A.J. Drew on Jul 25, 2007
Raven Grimassi - Considering the email Solstice just shared with us, wow your hole keeps getting deeper and deeper doesnt it?
You speak with the Frosts at Festivals, but never challenged them on a thing they wrote?
You have made your statement that you do not condone what they wrote in this obscure blog and website with a little over 1000 members, so you are done with it. Even that was violating your policy about ever saying a thing about other authors. So, basicly you are fully aware of what they wrote and intend to do nothing?
Solstice - What was that about seeing a rape, murder, crime and not bothering to call the police? I was wrong to liken his statements to that? You have the email.
I think he has missed that my anger with him is in his apathy.
It wasn’t my fault those kittens starved to death without their mother. I didn’t put them there.
By A.J. Drew on Jul 25, 2007
Check the quote thing too- if it were only a post length issue, wouldn’t it allow his replies to the earlier parts of the quote before the length cut off? I’m wondering if something about using quotations might be throwing it off too?
By Solstice on Jul 26, 2007
It seems to me that Raven’s issue is that he does not view *writing* about child rape to be an issue worth taking a stand over. If it were shown with proof that they had DONE it (which according to them they have not) then that would be another matter from what I get from him.
The question that I have is- as a leader of the community- it seems to me that it’s one’s obligation to, well, ‘lead’. If one is aware of a teaching that is so clearly harmful in nature, I would think that it would be responsible for a leader to, well, ‘lead’ the community into awareness that that teaching were harmful and wrong. (We aren’t talking about trivial issues here where disagreement is a matter of personal preference).
I don’t think Raven is a bad guy- nor do I think that he deserves the diatribes against him. I DO think that as a leader of the community that he (and others in his position) need to carefully consider the impact that the tolerance of such teachings and writings has on our community. I am sorely disappointed that more leaders in this community aren’t seeing a problem with this issue.
By Solstice on Jul 26, 2007
I should clarify, as re-reading I have to say that Raven is clear that he *does* see a problem- I should clarify that to read ‘I am sorely disappointed that more leaders in this community aren’t seeing this as something worth taking a stand over.’ It’s the issue of the unwillingness to get involved that I find disappointing (and not intending to single out Mr. Grimassi in any way). But for myself- there are two seperate issues here- whether the Frosts have *done* what is written in their book (which I have no way of knowing so isn’t my issue to pursue- that is under the jurisdiction of proper authorities). The other issue being that of irresponsible and flagrantly harmful instruction being presented as standard or even as any way acceptable to our community. IMO a leader should feel it their responsibility to point out that something is clearly harmful and unacceptable should they find something along that line being presented as part of their community.
Although… Perhaps because it is said to be Wiccan, and Mr. Grimassi and some others are not Wiccan, they don’t feel the responsibility as it may not be viewed as ‘their backyard’ so to speak… ?
Bottom line- I can’t force anyone to take a stand against something they don’t feel important enough to take a stand over. I do, however, feel saddenend and greatly disappointed and disillusioned by many of the so-called ‘leaders’ in the greater Pagan community for NOT taking said stand.
By Solstice on Jul 26, 2007
The other thing too is… As far as people not wanting to take a stand- the forward *does* say 18+… I certainly do NOT feel this in any way adequately covers it while the text remains unchanged. Some may feel the forward does cover it. However, it still encourages illegal activity in that an 18yr old is not of age to legally drink in the US.
The problem I have with the forward is that the Frosts are clear and quick to offense when the subject is brought up and are equating what was written with fathers bathing daughters and how it’s ’such a shame’ that they have to put the disclaimer in there…
IMO a responsible person upon hearing of the way people are reading this text, would IMMEDIATELY and WITHOUT QUESTION clear up ANY misunderstandings (if they were truly misunderstandings) regarding the idea that this should be done to a child. To NOT do so to me speaks of their defense of the work as it is being taken by AJ and others and their merely wanting to play ‘cover my ass’ in regard to the inclusion of a forward without changes to the text itself.
By Solstice on Jul 26, 2007