Donnie Bridges - North Little Rock Police
September 5, 2007 – 2:44 pmI have expressed my concerns to Pagan Pride of Arkansas about what I believe is a pedophilic instructional (The Witches Bible by Gavin and Yvonne Frost). They seem to have responded in a less than friendly manner, unwilling to discuss the matter with me personally and instead choosing to go to PaganNation.com and attack me there. I have asked other concerned members of the pagan community to express similar concerns and you have received a similar response.
I did not want to take the next step, but it seemed the only logic way to prevent the spread of what I believe is a pedophilic instructional, which promotes the connection between Wicca and the raping of children. I have written to the authorities in the areas where Pagan Pride Arkansas will be hosting Gavin and Yvonne Frost explaining that I believe the book is pedophilic in nature and that I believe it will be sold in Arkansas parks.
It appears Pagan Pride Arkansas has beaten me to the punch. The North Little Rock police department seems to believe I am a member of an organization attempting to attack Arkansas Pagan Pride and that what I believe to be instructions in pedophilia is just a side ways attempt to attack Arkansas Pagan Pride as if I do not care a bit about what is happening in our community or about the literature itself.
What a tangled web has been woven by defenders of the Frosts. First the story is that I do not care about the pedophilia the book seems to encourage, I just have a personal grudge against Gavin and Yvonne Frost. Now, I do not have a grudge against Gavin and Yvonne Frost I have a grudge against Pagan Pride Arkansas.
If you think this is an instructional in pedophilia and an encouragement to break the law then you do NOT believe it is protected speech. The First Amendment does NOT grant the rite to yell Fire in a theater. It does NOT grant permission to encourage pedophilia and it does NOT grant permission to sell material which encourages people to break the law.
If you feel this literature does these things, then write to Donnie Bridges and let him know what you think about this material being sold in the parks of his state. Let him know that you demand equal protection under the law for pagan children! Let him know you read this in a PERSONAL blog and that the idea that some formal group exists just to attack Pagan Pride Arkansas is ridiculous. Tell him to read the literature, quote it to him, and make him understand that you are sincerely concerned about this material being sold in the parks of Arkansas or anywhere!
Donnie Bridges (Donnie.Bridges@nlrpolice.org) writes:
“Capt. Davis is out of the state and will not return for several weeks he forwarded me your email……I am well aware of who they are and who your are….Did you forget to tell us there is conflict between your group and the group you are complaining about?”
Mr. Briges (title unknown):
I believe it is your job to enforce the law, not decide between bickering groups. In short, is the material pedophilic in nature? Is it protected speech? Should it be allowed to be sold in Arkansas parks with or without a proper permit to conduct retail business there? However, as you seem to have been convinced that I am a member of some group which is using the Frost’s pedophilic literature to attack Pagan Pride in Arkansas, let me assure you that I have taken no action against this organization until I discovered that they have plans on promoting this literature in your state.
I am a member of many groups, but none, which are in opposition to a Pagan Pride event. I am a published author who operate a personal blog on which I discuss the growing problem of pedophilia in my community. As an example:
Child Pornography in my community
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/07/17/child-pornography-paganism-c-of-e/
Child Pornography in my community
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/08/24/an-open-letter-to-norse-folk/
Child Rape in my community
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/08/01/loren-williamson-arrested-june-2007/
Child Rape in my community:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/07/17/elizabeth-miklosovic-36-year-old-teacher/
Child Rapist in my community:
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/07/10/usc-rapist-the-frosts/
I and many members of the community believe our community is plagued by such activity because we have been tolerant of pedophilic literature such as what Gavin and Yvonne Frost have included in their Witches Bible:
Quotes from The Witches Bible / Good Witches Bible – by Gavin and Yvonne Frost
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/defrost-please-read/
Someone did once joking call the folk who object to what the Frosts wrote as “De-Frosters”. My brother in law once called the supporters of Gavin and Yvonne Frost “Frosted Flakes”. I have used these two terms to identify what might appear to be “groups”, however what these terms have become is a simple way of referencing groups of people, not groups in and of themselves.
As I am sure you can reason, in any discussion there is a minimum of two sides to an issue. As there exists no formal group, incorporation, or association, which opposes Pagan Pride in Arkansas I did not feign to be speaking for a group when I contacted you. Instead, I believe I referenced myself as a concerned father, which I am.
While I have had some discussion of this matter outside my personal blog, the majority of the discussion has been had in my personal blog. As the author of several books written for the community which this addresses, my blog is rather popular. So when I called for people to write to Pagan Pride Arkansas and express their concern, it might have appeared to that organization as if there was a group effort. But no such group exists which stands in opposition to Pagan Pride Arkansas.
Again I stress that I am a member of a few organizations. Within these organizations I have expressed my opinions on the matter and have asked for emails expressing concern to be written. As an example, I have solicited the assistance of organizations such as Bikers Against Child Abuse, RAIIN, and other organizations, which oppose pedophilia and pedophilic literature.
I have also solicited the assistance of folk within the US Attorney Generals office in the matter of the publication as well as other authorities concerning multiple death threats made against myself and my family since speaking out against what I believe to be a pedophilic instructional, but as of yet I do not think I have been accused of being a member of those organizations.
My conclusion is that you are being misled, perhaps by a preemptive email as I have informed Pagan Pride Arkansas that my next step would be to contact authorities about what I believe is a pedophilic instructional which is about to be sold in your parks.
In closing, I believe the Witches Bible by Gavin and Yvonne Frost is a pedophilic instructional. As I am not a prosecutor, I am not the one to decide if it is indeed a violation of Arkansas law to sell the book in your parks. Having received my complaint and acknowledging reception there of, I believe it is your duty to bring it to the attention of the local prosecutor for a possible injunction against the material being sold or an arrest if it is sold should such be a violation of Arkansas law.
I am entitled to equal protection under the law and encourage other concerned pagans to write you and demand equal protection under the law for their concerns as well. You are a public official. I believe it is your job to respond to such concerns appropriately.
Sincerely
A.J. Drew
9 Responses to “Donnie Bridges - North Little Rock Police”
Go up the chain AJ. Oh hell with that go to the top! State Police and the FBI. This is taking place in a State park. The Frosts are crossing state lines to promote their book which give instructions on how to break the hymen of pre-pubescent girls. What more needs to be said. Also if it is proven that the Frosts are selling that book in a state park and this guy did nothing about it then he can be fired.
By Rhiannon on Sep 5, 2007
I’d start climbing over heads till I got someone to listen objectively..
By gina on Sep 9, 2007
Merry meet,
My name is Anton. I recently came across this website and have been reading some really interesting material related to Gavin and Yvonne Frost and the concerns that their book The Witches Bible’ has caused within the pagan community. The reactions are understandable. Reality is a lot different than it was at the time they wrote that book. I feel that at the time the book was written there were some elements included within it that fueled a “shock effect” on the readers of it as it still does today. I really think that they introduced the idea because at it’s basic level, Wicca is a Fetility cult.. and rites related to children within the craft were taken from bits and pieces of research they had done on the subject. Claims of Wicca being a fertility cult give people ideas as to what a closed cult like wicca at the time would be like. And they made a mistake in trying to introduce such material as being totally factual. Maybe mixing fact and fiction together.
I think it’s important to understand the time period that the book was produced in… The sexual revolution was taking place.. there were many groups testing out all sorts of new ways of living, such as living in groups.. The 60’s was a time of exploration and people were writing about all sorts of things. The occult was becoming fashionable and along with that the “shock effect”… Anton LaVey, comes out with the Church of Satan… Sex, Drugs, and Rock in Roll… were replacing the established culture. Tim Leary was saying to drop LSD, and films, such as Rosemary’s Baby… of which Anton LaVey himself stared as the Devil came out… It seemed that that time period opened the doors for many things good and bad… We wanted to escape.. escape Vietnam, the system, and go back to nature…Free love, and nudity were in fashion.. many people tried many things, they wrote many things that was meant to push the envelope of people’s thoughts and bountries as to how we could create different communities and different lifestyles rewoven back into the fabric of nature…. Those people who were active within occult groups wrote many things that were full of ideas and concepts that in some ways were never put into actual practice… and I think this is the case with some material within Gavin Frost’s books. For instance, some people thought that it was okay to exchange spouses for certain periods of time.. that idea was common place in the late 60’s.. Many people tried it, and it failed… many people attempted to live in groups sharing money, food and shelter.
So, Gavin’s book in some ways relected the times, and the introduction of sexual rites of this nature in a modern context was mistakingly introduced as a traditional rite. And, maybe such rites did take place in the past, but as with the idea of sharing wives.. these ideas remained I think within the pages of that book, without people really enforcing its supposed traditional backgrounds…
Authors like this have tremendous imaginations and sometimes as in this case, trying to reclaim feritily rites doesn’t go over well. Such rites are practiced today… and as many African women know;these painful effects of circumsion are all to common today. And, we should also think of the same rites thousands of young boys throughout the world go through too. I would think it highly unlikely a jewish boy’s penis is left in it’s “natural state”.. no, a holy man comes and cuts the foreskin off, and they have a celebration.. For the event allows the boy to become a member of the Jewish faith.. This rite is sexual.. and many other cultures embrace it too. I disagree with the practice, but I do understand it in a historical context. It’s all about sex, and fertiity… Gavin’s attempt to express rites of passage may have come from observations of other cultures who did similar practices..
In trying to establish his interperation of what a “witch cult” might have looked like a thousand years ago led him into uncharted waters. And, if he was just trying to be a “shock Jock” well it worked.
Yet, I think the actual concept of sections of the book being seen as child molestation wasn’t his intent. The basic idea is based on fertility. This concept was taken too far in expression… but, my hunch is like many concepts people left the notion right were it was… in the pages of the book.
I have read such negative reports about this book… and I am wondering.. if this information is so shocking and has damaged Pagans, then what happened to the children who were in Gavin’s covens? I’m surprized that I haven’t seen survivors on Jerry Spinger, or Murray Show telling stories of how their parents used dildo’s on them in such rites.
I think we went through that stage back in the 80’s with the big Satanic scare, along with the national “Witch Hunt” that ensued in many Day Care centers across this country. Geraldo Rivera helping to flame the fire with his constant shows on Satanic cults, baby scarfices, and the like… of which FBI investigations showed no such events were taking place.. Surely, if what Gavin wrote in the “witches Bible” was in actual practice that would have been the right time to come forward.. In my opinion, the Frosts painted themselves in a conner. First with the title of the “The Witches Bible” the word “THE” has been removed. But, the contents can’t be removed. This book has to be placed in context of the times it was produced in.. along with the subcultural forces who if nothing else, read the book… and put it on a shelf to gather dust.. Yet, from what I am reading it seems that it’s as alive if not more so due to the current climate in the USA in relation to child molestions and pedo’s… and that’s a very sad and dangerous combination.
Today, authors have to be careful as to what they publish.. with the introduction of Internet techology nothing remains in the dark for very long and the contents of this book surely is known. And, if anyone has an ax to grind… well, this is the medium to express it.
Surely, Gavin has made a lot of people angry, and most likely he’s created a lot of enemies within the Pagan communities across this country. Along with that, he has to take an active responsibility in facing the heat that “A Good Witches Bible” has created. For me, the book is nothing but a curious artifact and a left over from radical subculture thoughts about Utopias failed attempts at “going back to nature”.. with failed attempts in reclaiming primitive rites that no longer function within a Post Modern world.
WE think it’s all about Child abuse and molestation… and that’s what it is.. in our current context of thinking… but, it’s one thing to be within the pages of a book, and another when in actual practice. And, if what is written in the book is LAW… I really want to talk with children who went through the rites Gavin discribed in vivid detail in that book.
“The Witches Bible”.. stands as a reminder of how things can go very wrong. People, and culture can change… words in books don’t.
but it’s up to us in how we use that material.
Surely, Gavin has a ball a chain around his leg with this book…but as pagans, we have a duty in how we actually react to the contents. For one thing, if gives our dear Pastors fits of joy to know that pagans are shocked by it, and with constant focus that we give it… we collectly add karma to it’s unreal message, and in the end, all the negative shit, is only going to hurt the community as a whole… And, that friends… will be our contribution to it..because soon people will think that All pagans do this…. and there will be no way in hell to change their minds… So, go ahead.. shout it from the mountains! Shout it to the cops, to the churches.. the schools… shout loudly and long!!!! Shout it out, and tell the “System” all about this horrid evil that’s in that book…Scream it…. put more power in it…”WE” after all, didn’t write it… and no REAL PAGAN OR WITCH…does such things!!!
Tell it… and in a few years, when your children are taken away from you, because you are Pagan, or a Witch… well, then… you can point to That book and know it’s because of it that you lost your rights… NO friends…like it or not… that will be your karma. Cause the ones who are trying to focus on this book in the end will get everything back three fold.
Don’t we always get what we focus on? So… push it, and bring it out so your communities can see it.. talk about it.. Yeah, Right..
See.. the system will listen to you, but in the end.. the book is written by a Witch..and no matter what the fuck you tell them..if you are a Witch… they are going to connect you to that very book that’s being bitched about so dearly.
The book is in print..it’s really up to you all as to how much more negative energy you all give to its manifestation..
What should be done? I know, lets have a book burning… lets outlaw it…. yes, that will solve the mistakes and misunderstanding Gavin and Yvonne caused…. burn all the books. Like in Nazi Germany…no, I guess you have to burn Gavin and Yvonne… that’s right! They are fucking Witches. And that’s always been a good tradition… burn the friggin witches on a bunch of faggots..lol… Right…? Pagans on a witch hunt… it’s amazing. No one has really changed, we all are still beasts under our socialized formalities, and our secure notions of what’s right and wrong, or good and evil within our world…
I have been reading stuff connected with this issue the last two days, and I just had to say something about it. I in no way defend the The Witches Bible… there’s no way to defend it.It was written in a certain window of time when awareness of childhood abuse wasn’t understood. As all books are meant to do.. it was made to sell. Selling secrets is always a good way to get a book to sell… and many times, books filled with truths and lies, make better reading…
In this case, the marketing method… “Sex”… backfired because the National Awareness is absolutely glued on the issues of sexual Child abuse. In fact, the book will likely sell better now, than it did years ago. Because Pagans are so shocked!
PleaZZZE! forgive me, but the pagans I know aren’t shocked by much..and if they are shocked by this book… well, they need to go and study more… Real History, and philosophers instead of picking up the next Wiccan book being peddled at Barns and Nobles…in hopes of making “Wicca” socially acceptable….
Here’s another thing…. Wicca, and alternative paths were never meant to be “socially acceptable… Hell!! we have the Christian Chruch that does that. And… if nothing else,
The Witches Bible… made it clear about acceptance. Anyone with common sense would know that. Reading the book we know that it’s not acceptable. It comes down to our cultural taboos. Sex. Incest, secret organizations… Damn… all the things we see on TV everyday..Do we believe all that crap on TV? Then why believe everything we read in a camped up book? Here’s my take on it…
In 1976, The Church and School of Wicca was here in New Bern North Carolina…I was a 17 year old kid at the time.. I lived at the Church and School on and off for two years, and was part of it for many years. Not ONCE! ever did anyone ever harm me… no one ever cut my penis..nor did any of us use dildo’s on anyone…Also living in the home were children… and I can say without doubt that the kids in that community were never abused in any way whatsoever. Hell, I was a minor myself..and had to wait til I turned 18 before I could really take part in certain rituals.. I was never harmed, and the younger kids the members had living there were never harmed..
In fact, I was a wild ass kid, and I was embraced with love in kindness, understanding and acceptance.. Looking back, I don’t know how they put up with my teenage bullshit. I grew up in a bad home… and they gave me a place to live, a place to work and to feel as if I were a real person. I was always treated with respect, and I was taught to respect other people especially the value of women. Along with that I learned to value the power of female sexuality in a sacred way..
I read a posting, which said that the Frosts had a house In Carolina that had prostitutes. Well.. I lived in that house at that time, and I know for a FACT… there were no Whores there. As for how Gavin acted toward children.. he was kind and very concerned about all of us.. The Frosts treated their Daughter with love and were there for her for anything she had need of. The other members of the Coven with children treated them with equal respect and love.
The Children were never in any sort of rituals that only legal adults were allowed to attend. And, being within such activties at such a young age.. I was never forced to have anything done to my body! In fact, Gavin wanted our bodies to have nose rings, ear rings or tattoos. Our bodies were the temples of the Gods and we should try to keep them clean and not to disfigure ourselves.
I never saw any underage girl or boy engaged in any sort of sexual function for ANYTHING.. actual implied or ritualized…
For the most part, nothing we did actually fit with what was written in “The Witches Bible.
hanging around there for all those years.. Never did I see any sort of Whores, gang bangs, or wild sex parties… And, it’s really strange to read things about “The House”… that’s absolutely a lie.
And, if someone thought it was all about “free sex”…well, they would soon get a rude wake up call… and a boot out the door..
Now, what they have done since moving from New Bern.. I don’t know. I haven’t seen them in some years… But, I do know what was going on in the 70’s and 80’s….and somethings I have read… just isn’t the facts..
I’m not saying this to defend them, or that silly ass book… I’m saying this because I was part of this thing… and some people are just not telling the truth.
Gavin wasn’t very gentle, and I’m sure he’s made a few enemies along the way… I know that, but those are issues that he and such cohorts have to solve at some point… I saw people come and go…and sometimes, those people left very discontent and unhappy… but, that was none of my business, and I stayed out of personal issues related to those things.
For me, my introduction to them opened a world up for me I would have never known.. They and their Cohorts taught me and guided me in many positive ways.. And back in the 70’s, honestly there was little other options… anywhere… and yes, I have heard people bitch about him teaching craft through the mail, but.. I know that they dedicated themselves whole heartedlly to making the system work…and..it did work.
Gavin and Yvonne are just human…. The man has made some tough mistakes, choices…But, on another level, it took a tough bastard like him to deal with the people who crossed his path. And to be around him used to be intense and an ordeal in it’s own right.
I remain grateful…. for having had the opportunity to be around them and other leaders at that time period… None of it was easy, it felt as if we all were blazing a new trail, and thinking outside the box…
and, now..30 years later, I KNOW that was part of it. Yeah… if people know Gavin Frost, they might just say he is a big asshole… and I see now, that sometimes having a big ass is just what it takes to make things move. I am not part of their organization, I don’t promote, nor do I have any formal contact with them.. I am on my own path… and that’s what they would have wanted for me. Yet, these people and their leaders give me strong roots in spiritual practice in which I would have never had had the chance to explore and grow with. My High Priest and Priestess were the most wonderful people in the world, and they were always there for me when I needed help especially since I was a teenager at the time, needing guidance and direction… and the Frosts along with some other leaders provided that for me.. freely, and with love.
I saw negative things too, because people would come here thinking that magick, witchcraft, or the Frosts would be able to “FIX” them… and then such people would leave when they discovered that the Frosts weren’t magical GODS.. and that whatever had to be changed and worked on had to come from oneself… such vampires would leave with intense hate… Hate, that they had to find out the ultimate truth that no one can do the magic for them.. it’s all up to you. People really get pissed off when they find out their Guru’s can’t change them or fix what needs fixing.
Books are written to make money and to share ideas and thoughts…. in their case, for whatever reasons they’ve made bad choices in some writing methods. So, I saw the difference in the printed word, and the actual work. most of the expriences were good, and some were very bad… choices, choices I made… not because of them..
I hope people can understand my position and concern about all the judgement and finger pointing… there’s other ways and choices to make positive changes take place from negative mistakes… Right?
I hope you all the best of luck… and “An it harm none”…
Anton
By Anton on Jun 3, 2008
Anton - Wow, that was some truely high brow, deep intellectual thinking to create that post. Sorry, just a dumb Kentucky blacksmith here.
Jugement and finger pointing? I call it expressing an opinion.
Not sure where you got on about book burning, Nazi’s and the likes. I just think they are sick twisted freaks.
By A.J. Drew on Jun 3, 2008
Dear A.J.
seriously.. I doubt you are dumb.. so, want to come again on that?
It’s fine to express opinions… it’s America. I’m sure that you have some opinions I can understand and even agree with…
Should people have a book burning to honor the horror of the Frost’s Book?… Germany did in the 30’s… anything that didn’t fit in the mold was burned. It’s called social control. Fine, burn them. Something was said about burning images of the Frosts…well,, gee..I thought we’d had enough of that being it lasted five hundred years… hell, if you’re going to do it… do it with the real thing I guess.
So.. burn the books… burn them…. hate them..and what they did… What happened about “an it harm none”… what about attempts to heal this harmful information…
the general thought.. is as your opinion states. They are sick twisted Freaks… sure they are…
We can go to any Christian Church… and you’d be called the same thing.. but, that too is an opinion..doesn’t change facts.. that to the Church.. you’re a sick twisted freak..
in such a case if that happened, would that help to heal the situation.. to heal your spirit or would it in fact cause more harm?
Yes, that book has some twisted ideas..but I am here to tell you that what was written in the pages of that book..stayed in it.
I want to be introduced to any children of abuse do to this cult, within the years of 1976-1985.. can you find them for me. If they were here in New Bern..I really want to talk to them.You know what. It won’t happen, cause there never was any abuse.
I am very sorry this material has caused you harm…and that’s something the Frosts’ have to face. May I ask, did you ever know Gavin in person? did you study with them at anytime?
If so, if it turned out wrong for you I am deeply sorry for your pain.
He’s not an easy person to get close to, and encounters with him can be very intense. I just wish people could come up with a positive stance, and somehow engage the Frosts.. ask them as a community what can be done to change the harm done with this book, what they could do to help heal those harmed by this material, and what steps can be taken to see that such material isn’t introduced to the public again.
Maybe that would help.. Talking, communication, instead of name calling, like “sick and twisted”… methods like that just won’t open up anything. In my opinion.
By Anton on Jun 4, 2008
Please take a look at this site. It’s very twisted too.
anthro.palomar.edu/social/soc
By Anton on Jun 4, 2008
Anton:
Not saying I am dumb. I just don’t analyze things as much as you obviously do. I see no reason to do so. Sick is sick. No reason to really examine it further. In so far as “harm none”, I don’t much take to the interpretation of the Wiccan Rede that so many do. The way I see things, the Wiccan Rede rather clearly states that in the situation where none are harmed, do not question the action.
“An it harm none, do as you will”
It does not indicate that one should not cause harm at all, but instead indicates that here are no victimless crimes. That is, homosexuality and other than main stream sexual or other conduct which might be a sin in some religions or even a crime in some juristrictions are not a sin in Wicca. In situations where harm will be caused by an action, one is required to consult his or hear heart… the permanent connection to the divine.
So I see no problem with killing if a person needs killing and kind of agree with the institution of the Texas affirmative defense which basically states it is OK to kill a person who needs to be killed. Likewise, I do no think there is a problem with kicking someone’s ass who needs an ass kicking.
Some people state violence never solved anything. I respectfully disagree. Looking at human history, I see a sequence of events in which violence solved many problems. Violence is what formed my great nation. Violence is what put down Nazi Germany. Now while violence has also been the tool of the unjust, the fact of the matter is if one side is willing to use violence and the other is not, well things do not go well for the other side. Consider the resolve to the problems with the United States and the former Soviet Union. Both sides were more than willing to use violence, no war took place.
Lay down your arms with something like The Wiccan Rede, convince a generation of people that causing harm is always wrong, and ya sound like those folk who think the meek shall inherit the earth. Ye ye, sure they will but not until the rest of us are done with it.
By A.J. Drew on Jun 6, 2008
Thanks for the response A.J.
Yes, I have to analyze this issue, and I hope that the information proves to be helpful for those who may read it. I have said that I disagree with what’s in that book. But, the reason why I have stepped forth is to state that being a kid who lived with members of this cult, I was never abused by them, nor did anything in that book ever happen to any of us minors, or younger kids.
I’m not defending the material in the book, but I am defending my connection to the history of what I actually saw and took part in.
Most likely I am really going to get blasted for saying anything at all from all sides.
I am using the term “An if it harm None” due to the connection that it’s principle carries.. That principle for me, is to take time and care in how we interact with people and what the possible courses of outcomes we produce by not thinking things through with a sense of compassionate interaction. I view the idea of compassion,differently than Love. I don’t have to love my enemy.. but, if I so Will it, I can use a sense of compassion.. to spare such a person the ultimate force of uncontrolled anger. Unlike the Christian idea of loving your enemy which is a lie, a person can invoke compassion and temper their interaction of needed justice upon another human being.. even if in the end the culture demands of that person to pay the ultimate price with death.
In using the term, “An it harm none, do as thou wilt”. was taken right from the most evil man in the world.. Alester Crowley.. The Frosts and others just changed the wording somewhat to fit their idea. It’s a play on the law of Thelema.. and it doesn’t give a person the right to just do anything as they like.
There’s nothing special in its statement. Only in the hopes that people may take a pause in how they apply judgement upon other fellow human beings and the planet.
I have included your post next.. with my thoughts about what you had to say.
YOU SAID:
So I see no problem with killing if a person needs killing and kind of agree with the institution of the Texas affirmative defense which basically states it is OK to kill a person who needs to be killed.
You have the right to think that this is the way to deal with people. But, I feel it’s just socialized murder. And, I have mixed feelings about it. Maybe some people need to be murdered.. as we see done by States.. but, we also have seen many cases where people were put to death whom were later found to be not guilty of the crimes they had done. Do we really care About those people who paid the ultimate price?
I guess until such a situation actually touches us in a personal way we really don’t give it a second thought. So, yes.. maybe some people need to be given that ultimate judgement, but in doing so… never forget that there will be some who get caught within the Socialized murder machine who have no chance to reclaim their truth.
YOU SAID
Likewise, I do no think there is a problem with kicking someone’s ass who needs an ass kicking.
And, yes… there’s many people in the world who need an ass kicking I guess. I had a cousin who got his ass kicked by his parents every week.. and he grew up to kick other peoples asses, be grew up with anger, and he started ass kicking, and he spent years in jails for ass kickings.. and he finally died one night for trying to kick ass.. Days after his funeral, his parents were crying. “We always tried to raise him right, we always tried to make him behave and we can’t understand why he turned out to be such a mess.”. I just hated them! Well… maybe if they’d shown him some love, instead of kicking his ass all the time he’d been different.. Now he’s dead, and they are left with the guilt.
And Yes.. I agree.. some people might really need that ass kicking.. but it should be thought out carefully and be prepared to deal with whatever comes next.
you said
Some people state violence never solved anything. I respectfully disagree. Looking at human history, I see a sequence of events in which violence solved many problems.
You’re right. Human history proves that we’ve used violence to handle problems.. the stronger over the weaker. Violence, like many other things human beings do is part of what we are capable of doing. It’s a base primitive reaction to get what we want. We have that nature.. and like learning to walk, or to use language, we have to practice it to get good at it. Same with peace. We have to practice peace.
Peace is an energy that requires a lot of energy. To build anything takes work.. Love takes work and like building a house it requires time and dedication to a cause. It’s very hard to build something. But with anger, and violence we can undo in minutes what took years to manifest. To live demands tremendous work.. to kill requires nothing, and at the base of such killing is violence. Violence is so easy. I respect your opinion, and I have felt that violence may be the only choice at times… I think that; because that’s what I’ve been told. But, I make a choice to embrace my own inner violence and that power contained within me as a man in a different manner if at all possible.. and the more I work at it, the more violence I find within my heart within my manhood.
Many New Age movements are all about Light and love… and that everything in the universe is so pure and wonderful. No, and I think that’s a bunch of bullshit. Because, as wonderful as human beings can be, we are also monsters who will kill anything and everything in it’s path.
The universe… nature.. is at it’s base functions predator and pray. The big fish eats the little fish. The cunning ones learn to survive within the sea of the universe somehow.
Man, it so seems is the only animal who willingly can kill other beings “just to kill”. And we are doing a very good job in proving it.
You Said
Violence is what formed my great nation.
That’s right. Our country was formed by violence. We can’t get enough of it. We love to watch it on the big screens at the theaters. And we let our kids watch the wonderful nature of violence.. then, we wonder why the prisons of filled with 2 million people and counting.
Then, let us not forget about the American Indians, and that with total lack of compassion for those savage and uncivilized peoples who lived on Turtle island for thousands of years before our Great Nation was created.
Americans embraced the concept of “Manifest Destiny”. GO WEST YOUNG MAN!… and we did.. killing everything.. why? because it was ours.. it’s our Manifest Destiny..And with violence we totally wiped groups of human beings off the face of the earth. Nothing new… There’s nothing new under the sun… it’s very easy and requires no thought… that’s the way we have always worked and still work, cause we don’t want to put in effort to engage other parts of our brains or spirit.. it requires work..
Violence enslaved groups of Africans to do the labor we needed to be done. Nothing new.. same old practice.. and slavey is still popular today. We have slaves in this country and around the world doing the labor that we don’t want to do…nothing has changed in thousands of years. Just different faces, different wording.. different times…
Violence subdued anything that didn’t fit the “Social Ring of power”. Does it mean it was wrong? no.. not really.. it’s the nature of man… to expand and to take over other populations of human beings.. IT’s human nature… all so human. But, it’s also a collective choice we make.
YOU SAID;
Violence is what put down Nazi Germany. Now while violence has also been the tool of the unjust, the fact of the matter is if one side is willing to use violence and the other is not, well things do not go well for the other side.
Violence did put down Nazi Germany.. yes. But, it has in no way stopped Nazi thinking. and if the thinking doesn’t change.. then we can bomb the hell out of a country all we want and it won’t change… yeah, we wiped them out, but we didn’t change the thinking… And, Hitler’s goal was to take over Europe.. remove all peoples who were deemed unfit to live in such a society just as a million Jews found out. and he was going to create a Union by the use of violence to make European Countries into one central power… For all the violence, in the end, The European Union was created.. with Germany being at the head… Germany was rebuilt through the Marshal Plan so go figure we bomb them back into the stone age and turn around and rebuild them.. with our tax dollars. in a way, Some of the Nazi goals still manifested.. with our help. To top it, No European country really wanted the Jews.. so.. we created a new State for the Jews… “The final and only solution because in fact, NO country in Europe wanted the Jews anyway…In the end, did our violence actually change anything? No because we are still fighting and using violence.. the fight never ended.. we are over there right now, doing the only thing we know.. Violence. We just can’t get a belly full of it.
You said an interesting thing about our permanent connection to the Divine… in my understanding, this means that all things are connected to this Divine source… and being that humankind is given a special gift of being able to make creative choices due to that connection… In my understanding, everything is connected to it, and whatever we do to others, we are actually doing to our own beings…For me, the energy of life is one thing. and I see humanity as a living organism, living and populating a larger organism called earth, who occupies a place in Space and Time called the universe… WE ARE ONE BEING. my violence my hate, my sorrow… is the same as yours… as is my happiness, and my hopes for all peoples on this planet. Yeah…I know my hate.. and I know I have tremendous violence within my being… but, with careful thought.. I know if I use my intent to harm without real cause or threat.. I am only harming my own placement within the Divine nature of this gift of reality I chose to live in. I need to see my violence.. I would be a lier to think I am above my base human nature..
You Said
Consider the resolve to the problems with the United States and the former Soviet Union. Both sides were more than willing to use violence, no war took place.
NO war took place because both sides know that the use of violence will leave no winners at all. Knowing that.. both sides have used the resources of others in any way possible to gain an upper hand.. Both countries knew that they could in no way confront each other directly.
Economics of Capitalism finally proved the stronger of the two. And the Soviet Bloc fell. In theory… actually nothing has changed there for those people… and not much has changed here neither. If anything, it’s given our Government the freedom to really do anything it wants to any country or groups that we deem to be of use for our standard of living, and the American Way…
YOU SAID>>
Lay down your arms with something like The Wiccan Rede, convince a generation of people that causing harm is always wrong, and ya sound like those folk who think the meek shall inherit the earth.
We will never lay down our arms..forces within us can’t imagine such a thing because, we think that our country is the land of the free.. and it’s not. There’s other forces at work, and who are working fast to inch in all the rights that we think we have under the “Bill of Rights”.
The way I think of the Rede, is to take pause before engaging in a violent act that may cause harm to other beings. I don’t think it means that violence can never be used, but how to apply that force should be given careful thought before using violence as a tool to administer judgement. As for arms… anyone can get one.. and most never take a second thought as the blow the brains out of some night clerk, or taking a Sunday stroll through a mall… they or course have taken quality time in learning about their inner violence, they understand that no one will suffer from such actions… mothers and families of victims.. that was in arms length… But, our culture allows us to have any sort of fire arms.. I wonder why..
Ye ye, sure they will but not until the rest of us are done with it.
Yes… you are correct. Because in my reality, we are almost done with it.. really J.A. we have taken most of what this planet has been able to give… And, we keep on taking, and taking..It’s our Manifest Destiny… to take it. And when we are done with it.. to oil, the trees, the minerals, coal, and all the other things… Then we will know at last the truth of our collective choice as a country along with those of other countries had done. I have no worry about the meek getting anything. Cause there won’t be anyone here to get anything at all…
The planet has it’s own functions and awareness that we have no ideas about.. but, there’s functions such as earthquakes, climate changes.. and the violence of war which all chime in for cleaning house..War is such a function..disease another… when things get too dirty.. the planet can and will shake off the fleas and lice, with the very tools inherent in the human psyche… Read all the ancient scriptures from all traditions… all this is to come… when we are done with it..
It’s simple and everything comes down to what can survive and what will not. Planetary economics will be the winner. Not us. But we have been warned.. I guess. really I don’t know why I even care.. and I actually don’t care. I walk my path the best I can.. and I will die like a dog like the rest of humanity..
Thanks so much for you time, and openness to communication..
Anton
By Anton on Jun 6, 2008
Hi AJ,
Just some more thoughts. First, a few weeks ago I went to a local pagan meeting. This for me was a special event, because I very rarely go to any events. I am mostly a hermit and so, I’m not very well known with the community. I just prefer to stay low keyed and remain reclusive in with my life. But, at that gathering, I met a few people who were curious about my background, and so I told them I had been part of Frost’s Wicca… and when I did, that’s when I get wind of this issue about members of the Frosts groups being child molesters and having done all sorts of sexual abuse.. In fact, one person was sort of putting out vibs, as if I WAS such a person. I didn’t know what to make of such comments, but linking it to that book was the only thing I could connect. I was hurt, and angry. So, some days ago, I got on the computer and your site was like at the top of some link I had clicked.
I have had only limited time to get into this blog to read what people have posted, but the things that hit my eyes I explained to already, and know them not be be true. So, after all these years… I just felt the need to speak about it.
Tonight, I have taken more time to read through the postings on your site here.. and you know, it’s really painful reading. I see information and gossip in relation to so many people, I see people afraid, fearful that others are shooting at them, hacking computers, causing harm to peoples jobs, ect, ect… threats of curses, and of negative things… in general a lot of mud slinging, parnoid thinking and mistrust..
I am trying to read through this material slowly, trying to understand the material, cause honestly, I haven’t about any of these peoples lives or connections. But, I do see why many years I made the choice to become a recluse and not very open about anything dealing with paganism, witchcraft or magic. Nothing due to the Frosts, but other Wicca connections I had made just left me with a lot of pain and hurt due to yet the break up of a group I had engaged with, and had tried to trust.
What I am reading in your blog, yet again seems so typical of so many groups, and the failures that ensue due to issues of power, and other group dynamics which lead to disasterous ends.
Reading some of the stories, seems like people just are attacking each other and really trying to hurt each other on a deep psychological level… there’s no trust in anything I am reading, and I feel deeply sorry for all the people who’ve become entangled in any webs of the negative side of Paganism. Neo-Paganism, Wicca, or the practice of the magical arts in general.
the blog is covered with hard words from all difrections inflicting and implying violence upon people who are supposedly friends and family…
This isn’t anything on you personally, but as an outsider looking to what people are posting, I see a lot of fear, threats and actual suggestions of violent actions to be aimed at you! and others… What I also see, is that this goes beyond the issue of Gavin Frost’s book. Some posts written and shared by others is just truely horrid tales of people fire bombing homes and wreaking lives… and again behind the stories the energy that’s flowing through is violent energy. And it runs much deeper from what I am able to see with my limited reading into totally different issues unrelated to your concern about the Frost’s material and the effects it has on the Pagan community.
It seems that a war.. is taking place within the community on many different fronts for many different reasons.
You know, I found this site thinking it’s a safe place to discuss things. But the more I am reading, I am not so sure. Funny thing, I have put some of my energy in the firing line by making statements about events that took place here many years ago. And I am saying that I see a lot of misinformation about actual practices.. and that.. for me, the Frosts lied to some degree about the actual practices compared to what was in that book. Now, form what I saw, and experinced is all I can account for. IF such practices did ever take place, then I wasn’t aware of them. SO, there’s lies tied up with truths.
Yet, the determination of what you mention as DEFROSTING…. and exposing the facts of that book you’d also exposed to me the lie, that seems to be inherent within Pagan, Wicca groups.
And it’s a big lie too, and sad. When people write books on Wicca, it’s always presented in such a positive light, statements that the Wicca are a peace loving, people who worship the God and Goddess, people who embrace the earth and her manifestions of life, and the absolute treasure that is within each person’s life who’s part of Wicca…. Thou are God, and thou are Goddess… We tell the public how wonderful we are… we jump at each Sahmain to get the chance to do radio or a TV spot, to let people know that there’s nothing to fear of Witches… that we are harmless, and that we only use white magic for healing…
We use any opportunity to express such wonderful views, and share the expriences of what it really means to be a witch, and to be part of such a close group of people who work in harmony, known as a Coven. We spend endless hours writing books and trying to “become accepted”, by the social world, by our communities ect.
Really now…. what a friggin lie. I mean, just stand back and look at the language, and the fear that some of the posts within just this one public blog has to share..
It’s very sad, because I have really yet to read anything about healing, and how wonderful Wicca and the likes is… or how it’s helped peoples lives to improve, grow, and to be complete… I am reading posts where people are being attacked on different levels, threats with guns, and just attacks on all sides.
No…. my friend, lets get honest… Wicca, IS NOT the Nature religion of love and peace that we all so greedily try to express to the public within our respective communities… WHy is Wiccan’s hurting each other on so many levels?
I guess I am guilty too. Lying to the WORLD outthere that we have no problems within Wicca… that with the Charge of the Lord and Lady, and the all powerful effects of Magic, we pagans have no need for harm… we attempt at all costs to remove the dark stains of our past. And try to convince the Western mind that the Word witch, actually is a postive and life enhancing word which we have reclaimed from the negative actions of the Chruch… IT’s the Churche’s fault.. not ours, oh no! we, the great Western tradition of Witchcraft NEVER use magic for anything negative… Now, please… tell me that you haven’t yourself, along with others that you may share this post with haven’t attempted to adjust peoples opinions about the nature and the misunderstandings of our Relationship to such emotionally charged words… such as “WITCH” “WARLOCK” white magic, Black magic…
we spend if able countless hours in public defence of the right to practice this religion, and spend many more hours in trying to convince the public that we are in fact Harmless, benevolence and very peace loving people…
THen, there’s the real world… you know, That secret inner circle… that only those with power and initation enter, or dare to walk…
The inner secrets of the Craft… that the outside world doesn’t know… the secrets that only inner core people are given..
Well, just sampling the posts here, The real secrets are apprent… The reality is there’s no love at all…. I see only power words of hate and paranoid encounters with people jocking up in order to gain Power through fear, through threats… and not one thread of what we all.. ME too! has blabb out to the curious public..
No, hell no! we don’t want the public to know the truth about just how fucked up this movement can get.. And what psycho power hunger and I gather very dangerous people have been allowed to attend gatherings or the Pagan Pride thing…. gosh… what pain I feel for all these people.. What fear, must people must be under due to such interactions with some of the leaders of covens… besides your admitted concern about the Frost’s book, which I can understand, I swear… some of the posts sent to your blog posting is truely the worse some other people can be.. and, you know what? it’s typical… such people have always made their way into power positions to cause tremendous trouble, and just totally enjoy to see so-called Witch wars flare up… and enjoy nothing more than to jump from station to station the fan the flames of their true intent… and that’s to induce fear, and hate among people within the Wonderful world of WitchCraft..
I really don’t know your position within Craft issues.. I think I read you gave public lectures.. written books ect… I will seek out your books, and I am curious, I want to see what your take is on the Beautiful nature of Wicca… have your spoken this to the public, have you written about it..
Or, will you go out there and tell the other truth, along with what the current issue related to the Frost’s Wicca.. Can you get the gutts to go out, and tell the public, how power hunger people can and do with little provocation attack peoples computers, and send constant email threats… Have you has such threats to yourself?
IF so, how can you stand by what you publicly tell others, along with written material with any honesty A.J.
I am not saying anything bad about you.. I really haven’t had the time to check out your publications.. but, I can gather the basic line of publication that’s needed to be presented…
Well.. just go through this blog… and read the mistrust, and warnings contained with in some of those posts… Then! you yourself, will be an honest man, in representing Wicca.. as you KNOW it.. because it’s what’s on your blog, and the people communicating here.. aren’t expressing, anything positive about Wicca at all. In fact, I am now somewhat fearful to even post. It’s so bad, I am actually a little nervous.. maybe someone will think wrongly of my wish to discuss these issues and try to cause me harm… And I state rightnow, I haven’t written anything here to harm you, anyone reading these blog posts, nor am I Out to help or to hurt the Frosts.. I don’t want to cause anyone to think I have any sort of wrong intent… But, honestly, I am unnerved by reading some of the material I just came across.
Yes.. That my friend is Real Wicca…. And, I told you that when I was with the Frosts years ago.. they protected us kids.. and, I totally understand why… because there were some very dangerous and unhinged people back in the 70’s that was in the stuff, as there is rightnow..and from a few post I read here.. such people are out only to really harm to to create rumors and maybe threats to physically kill though magical means or whatever methods.. it’s very distresting information, and I want you to promise me.. that such people don’t have my email address that was sent to your blog..
I tell you, there’s issues that to me go much deeper than just Frost’s issues.. and it’s not just expressed here in your blog, I have seen it before myself right here with other groups.. and being the mean reason for my withdrawl from public events for many many years..I just couldn’t take the constant power struggles that the so called High Priests within this area were doing… You know, really there was a lot of sexual abuse… but not with the Frosts.. but with other self proclaimed leaders in the craft whose sole intent and purpose was to attempt to fuck any woman they could introduce to the craft with the use of sexual initations.. What a ploy just to get in these womens pants.. What a total lack on respect for the scared nature of womanhood.
I’m not totally cut off from the goings on around the neighborhood here.. and I do have some Wiccan leaders who come to visit with me time to time… and, they always ask why I don’t start a coven… and I laugh… Well, really I don’t want to be brothered with the bullshit which will always ensue…So, to really shock people.. I say in order to join my coven, every member will BE SKYCLAD within circle, and there will be SEXUAL initations… Boy! that does it… I have no students beating at my door… and I remain sole and basicly free from dealing with all the bullshit. The total bullshit.
In fact, some of the wana be students seem shocked when I say they have to be skyclad.. and I think, damn… in all the old witch material the people worked skyclad… and it’s a reqiurement of the Charge of the Goddess that yeah shall be naked in the rites, to show that you are totally free… Right?
Well, that part has slowly been worked out with many groups… to make the caft more socially acceptiable to the public I guess… I know the group I visited, there would have been all out war if people had been ordered to disrobe… no way in hell were any robes coming off…LOL…
Wicca, it seems is becoming more “Moral”…. in it’s relationship… with the outsiders… in fact, reflecting some of the very morals that made Wicca a rebelious group of seekers to begin with… Those people who constructed the primises of Wicca…. intentionally created opposite views in order to shock… Not for the public… but to shock the psyche of the group mind of the coven membership itself… being skyclad.. “shocked the intellectual and social make up of the member… and should in effect create a rebrithing of spirit… naked as a new born babe coming into the world… holding within it’s being the power of sex… which is afterall, the only method a incarating enity has to enter into this world.. SEX.. procreation being the foundation of life expression… and yet, so feared and so frigging powerful and mystic that we built all sorts of social taboos as to how we could use our naked bodies, and our sexuality… THe Chruch really hooked on this, and sucessfully created social control by telling people when and when they could and couldn’t have sex… removing it from it’s natural state of primal energy and life.. turning it into, as it really remains today… turning it into something very nasty… ugly… evil… sick, twisted…. Organized Religions learned that controlling the sex lives of it’s populations with the threat of God’s wrath, along with the Public aggrement on that… whole populations were twisted and learned to be twisted.. Just look, at the Catholic Church issue… The priests are forced to deny the very thing that brings life… and so twisted are their thoughts and so lacking are they about the magical nature of sex, they instead become twisted sexual monsters finding release only with the most innonce and helpless of those among us… our children….
Not all groups are like that… and not all WIccan covens are at war with each other…
A popular invocation when entering circle… is ‘can you enter this scared circle..”In perfect Love, and prefect Trust”… GOD! what a test…..we prance up to the gate with loving trusting smiles… oh yes… prefect love and prefect trust…
Then.. fucking reality hits…. if the gig lasts long enough, As I am reading material.. I see no love, and surely not a blood drop of trust in anything people are honestly expressing about encounters with powerful negative psyhopath personalities that are causing chaos and fear…
Some things I am reading seems to be giving me actual flash backs of expriences I encountered in the 90’s with other covens who’d moved here.
No way man… I remember why I stopped the public interactions… I can see why people get upset and angry about what takes place, and instead of focus on sex abuse of children, the real issue that’s tearing the movement apart is the dishonesty about the actual attacks and the real lack of care that many so-called Witches introduce themselves as..
Honestly, being part of a coven is no easy feat.. but, It can work… there’s many that have as closed groups learned to handle the complex psychological needs that each member will need… many do grow. Those that have we need to really respect, and follow as guides to hold things together.. Cause, dude… as your posts show me… there’s some really freaked out people out there.. very angry, and very unconcerned about anything but how they can display power over other people…. What’s your view on these sorts of issues?
Thanks
Anton
By Anton on Jun 7, 2008