Organized Religion / Ideology
March 30, 2008 – 2:54 pmAn ever changing Pagan Community
There is a post at http://PaganNation.com by Obsidian_Angel that has brought about a wave of deep thought in my mind.http://pagannation.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showthreaded/Number/91921
What caused me to think on the matter of Organized Religion / Ideology was something Gina said in that post:
Gina said: “Godess spare the pagan path from the insanity of this world is all I can say! “
http://pagannation.com/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showthreaded/Number/91950
The short of the post and its threads is that Obsidian Angel has observed that a formerly active member of Pagan Nation by the name of ‘Elder RavenFire’ has been active elsewhere and received a similar cold shoulder on other sites. Evidently, Elder Ravenfire received an email reportedly from some group of people claiming to have authority over all Wiccans in North America. Aimee and I thought the email was a joke, but many people thought it likely that such a group, which believes it, has that authority does exist. Evidently, many people in the pagan community have had enough experience with wing nuts that it was not hard to believe that a few of them had found each other.Well, it later turns out that Aimee and I were in part right. Although Aimee thought it was me who sent the email and I thought Obsidian_Angel had sent the email, the email was reportedly sent by a man named Davin as a way to yank Elder RavenFire’s chain / as a joke. Bringing up that name caused many folk to remember Davin as not only a former member of Pagan Nation but a guest speaker at the Real Witches Ball a few years back. From that came a discussion of a friend of his, Mystie Dragonfly who was also a former member of Pagan Nation.
Their connection was made at one of the annual events I once hosted; The Real Witches Ball. Evidently Mystie Dragonfly and Davin are both into whips and chains. Let me be clear no problem with that. Well, what there was a problem with is that Mystie Dragonfly and Davin evidently did some of their S and M thing (complete with black leather toys) in front of an 11 year old girl. Her father was very put off by this and publicly stated his discontent. My stance was that I had never thought we needed an official rule against such conduct in front of children, but that evidently we did. My reason for not being angry with Davin is that it seemed as if he had no reason to think that such conduct was unacceptable. Although I would like to think that my sense of what is proper behavior were automatically known to people around me, I realize such is not the case.
Mystie Dragonfly was a member of Pagan Nation who for a time had aspired to create a Pagan Community center in Columbus, OH. I had publicly informed her that it was my opinion that she should team up with an organization like the Pagan Community Council of Ohio to achieve that goal because maintaining such a thing would be a fulltime job. As she was on disability and reportedly not able to maintain a fulltime job, it seems that creating such an establishment would amount to defrauding the federal government. Beyond that statement, I have very little to do with the events which followed; so if my facts are a bit skewed on this part of the story, I apologize.
Aerohstotle (aka Pickle) was close to Mystie Dragonfly at the time he called Aimee to warn her of Mystie Dragonfly’s plans. Something about a cursed doll to be given to my daughter Aubreyahna to get back at me for making that public statement. Aimee was so outraged that I just kind of stayed out of it. Trust me on this one, when my wife gets angry the best thing to do is stay out of the way and maybe duck. Anyway, I later found out that although I had simply made the statement and never thought a thing about it, many people started not only identifying where Mystie Dragonfly worked but reporting her to what ever agencies overseas disability checks. Now I don’t think there is anything wrong with reporting abuse of public assistance, but I had absolutely nothing to do with it.
Still, evidently Mystie Dragonfly thought I was behind her months or maybe years of trouble resulting from it. Sometime later, I was contacted by an associate named Justin who works in the field of mental health. He warned me that her myspace account was the type of warning signs that he was reading about at the time. I looked at the page and was absolutely amazed to find that I was the subject of post after post about how she was going to get even with me for everything that had gone wrong in her life. There were spells and curses, a declaration that the injuries I acquired when my store was flooded where her doing.
Enter Jill Medicine Heart Combs, stage left. You might recall this is the former Vice President of CUUPS and current Regional Director for the Ohio Valley of the Pagan Pride Project who decided to make a poppet of me and fire 80 rounds of ammunition into it. She publicly announced her plans, claimed that board members (either PPP or CUUPs) participated in her magickal plans, then changed the story over and over again.
Well, Mystie Dragonfly was at the time involved with PPP. She and Jill Medicine Heart were listed as friends at Myspace and a bunch of other associations can be found.
Now then, in that thread that caused me to think about all of this, Gina asked a question:
Gina asked: “What type of person gives a innocent baby a dream pillow stuffed with poisonious herbs??”
Well, the answer is Pagans do. Not all pagans. But there is this very dangerous ideology present within the pagan community. If you were a head / freak / beatnik (depending on your generational terms) you will probably recall hearing something along the lines of: ‘Oh, he’s OK I got high with him last night’. If your highschool social group was different then mine, let me explain. People who smoked marijuana as part of their culture considered the consumption of that recreational drug to be the definition of who is a member of that social group. Of course anyone who is a member of your social group must be a good person, so if they smoke weed they must be Ok. It seems the same is true of the pagan community.
Where Gina was repulsed by the idea that someone might do something like this, most people just hear a person call themselves ‘pagan’ and figure they are good people. In fact, when someone points out that there is a problem with some members of the pagan community as I have done here in my blog, people are very quick to defend those people and attack me because they feel it is an attack on their social group.
The truth is there is a much larger social group which is always guilty of the things which are pointed out in the smaller social groups. That group being humanity. Although it is sometimes tempting to divorce humanity, doing so is not practical. For this reason, we tend to form smaller groups with more clearly defined rules for social conduct. Things like the Catholic Church come to mind. Not that it is my particular social group of choice, but it lends itself to the next issue as demonstrated by my Catholic Mother.
Although most people are quick to associate all Catholics with people who believe what the Church dictates when it comes to morals and ethics, there are certainly those Catholics who feel differently. It is these members who cause the Church to grow and change with the times. An example, the word ‘faggot’ once indicated a bundle of wood which would be tossed on the fire. It came to indicate a homosexual when the Church was fond of burning gay folk. Leap forward to the last Pope and we find that the Church had demanded that parents NOT forsake their gay children. In fact, although the Catholic Church still feels homosexuality is a sin (as is any non-procreative sex) it encourages gay men to become priests thus living their life in sinless celibacy. No, it is not as progressive as it should be; however today’s Catholic Church is a far cry from what it was a couple hundred years ago.
Mom is a Catholic. She is a Catholic that thinks women should be allowed to become priests, priests should be allowed to wed, no form of love between adults is a sin, abortion and birthcontrol should be allowed, and well you get the picture. It is women like her that cause the church to change and grow with the times; amending its views on morals and ethics. Yes it is a slow process, but you might recall the former Pope apologized for the Church’s atrocities against women and the current Pope has recently reevaluated sin to create a modern view which includes crimes against the Earth herself. Wow!
The flip side to this is that if the organization does not have a clear set of guidelines for social conduct, well it is much easier to change the moral and ethical fiber of the organization. This is the case with the pagan movement and other non-organized groups. While we run away from the embrace of organized religion because we do not like the confines of its dictates; in so doing we have lost the value of common social ethics. But being a social creature, we need something to bring us together.
In organized religions, members bind together based on their common sense of what is right and wrong with a few people there to promote that slow progress (Mom). With unorganized religion, we kind of band together under the title of the social order with a sense of morals and ethics which are practically led by those few people who promote a much faster change. Oh, he is pagan he is cool. But because we share so few commonalties with each other, we seek to build our social structure on something else.
In this case, the thing all of these people have in common is that I have had some distasteful exchange with them. So now they have a mission; to promote the ‘I hate A.J. club’ because it is what binds them all together.
For a time it seems Davin was part of this club. Although I do not recall visiting his website to find the rants I have been told about, it seems there was a period in which he echoed dozens of things Mystie Dragonfly had put forth about how evil I am. Evidently, the content is no longer there. I figure the man moved on and realized I had never really yanked his chain to the extent he once thought. Frankly, I had found many of his posts prior to the falling out to be very well spoken and informed. So maybe he resigned from the club. No clue really.
So what type of people do these things? We pagan people do these things. Why? Well because the word pagan is used to mean a social group, not a group of people brought together by a common sense of morals, ethics, or perception of proper social conduct. Consider the ranting of Jill Medicine Heart Combs shortly after she lost her position as Vice President of CUUPs. She announced to the world that she still hob knobbed with famous people. I think that was in the Frost’s blog but I forget. Evidently, what is important to her is her social standing and not what that social standing is based on.
This is why the people that I love, my kith and kin, are made up of a rainbow of religions. You see I am not so interested in the title or size of my social group as I am with the morals, ethics, and social conduct I can expect from them. Yes, I am pagan and yes the pagan community has some very serious issues. Yes I am human and yes humanity has some very serious issues. But the confines of my social structure are not based on members of any particular group. Instead, I find people of like minds from a much broader base on which to structure the mutual support and dependency that any social creature requires.
Fortunately, it seems there are many others who feel as I do. You might have noticed that although people at Pagan Nation do bicker from time to time, there is a sense of morals and ethics emerging from the people there. People like Gina ask how it is that a person might do what folk claim Mystie Dragonfly has done. She questions it because she is part of a group of people (Pagan Nation members) who recognizes such conduct as not appropriate in the same way it seems the community at Pagan Nation agreed with the 11 year old’s father that Davin’s conduct was not appropriate. Not a set of morals, ethics and social conduct dictated by a central authority; but a sense of these things established by a consensus of its members. Sure, people with differing views will come and go from Pagan Nation but it seems there is a prevailing sense of social conduct prevails and for that I am glad.
I see the future of the pagan community as becoming more and more diverse. In that movement towards diversity, I see less definition and a loss of any sense of morals, ethics, and acceptable social conduct. But I do not think that is a bad thing because we continue to have the ability to form our own social groups. Some people believe this view to be detrimental to he pagan community, but I think just the opposite. I think the view that all pagans are united in their views is detrimental as it is clear that we are not.
After all, Gavin and Yvonne Frost claim to be Pagan and I have not found many views of theirs that I share. Perhaps a time has come when we should start creating organized religions, groups with clear standards of social conduct, morals and ethics. Not so that these things can be forced upon its members, but such that its potential members can more readily find like minded folk with whom to form deep lasting relationships based on commonalties beyond a desire for a social structure.
11 Responses to “Organized Religion / Ideology”
What ever happened to the concept of right and wrong?..and knowing the damn difference? I always felt the being considered pagan gave me the impression that one was at the very least “enlightened” to a certain extent, but I guess I was wrong after seeing this post..Allowing an 11 yr girl to witness S & M? Trying to harm an innocent baby? Then we have the *rosts, the self-proclaimed “movers and shakers of the wiccan comunity” who incorporated a passage in their book advocating the sexual abuse of minors as a form of ritual and calling it a bible..Goddess give me a fucking break!..What’s wrong is just plain wrong, What’s right is just plain right. there is no real grey area when you honestly look at it. think it’s time to start calling these individuals on their bs, and set them up as examples of what TRUE paganism is NOT!
By gina on Mar 30, 2008
Gina - Oh I agree. But it doesn’t work. The pagan community, having no central authority, is (in part) all these things. Just like humanity is (in part) all of these things. While I might want to divorce humanity, I can’t afford the legal fees.
By A.J. Drew on Mar 30, 2008
It’s getting to the point that Paganism is becoming so watered down–anything goes–like slap a pentagram pendant on, buy a baphomet statue, learn to quote a few line from Crowley and BAM! You’re a bonafide Pagan. It’s getting to the point where the, dare I say it, NORMAL pagans, not the LARP addicts and crazies, start to stand up against these wingnuts to say that they do not represent our community that these idiots will run back to their Charmed DVD’s and Silver Ravenwolf books and hide for a while.
By Aerohstotle on Mar 31, 2008
You said “After all, Gavin and Yvonne Frost claim to be Pagan and I have not found many views of theirs that I share. Perhaps a time has come when we should start creating organized religions, groups with clear standards of social conduct, morals and ethics. Not so that these things can be forced upon its members, but such that its potential members can more readily find like minded folk with whom to form deep lasting relationships based on commonalties beyond a desire for a social structure.”
I have often thought of that too. It is so hard to find ‘REAL’ pagans in this community that thats part of the reason why I am solitary. I cant find anyone who isnt like the person Aerohstotle discribed. I have one goddess oriented wiccan friend and my mother is pagan but other then that… NO TRUE PAGANS, other then the ones here that I talk to online :D. Something does need to be done in our community to sort out the real from the fake, the ones that are true to the path and the ones doing it false reasons. I just dont know how that can actually happen with so many ‘Prominant Pagans’ spewing all their bull shit. I hope one day to find someone that can help me learn and grow in my path, but until then I stay solitary; I am better off alone then with a nut job Frost pedophile supporter…
By Briena on Mar 31, 2008
Briena – Would you say Rev. Fred Phelps is Christian? A lot of people say no, others say yes. I no longer feel I can say what a ‘true pagan’ is and is not. It has been made painfully obvious that the majority of pagan authors, organizations, festivals, and other publicly visible folk representing the pagan community do not have a problem with many of the things I have issues with. It is not just Gavin and Yvonne Frost. I find an even larger issue with the whole ‘harm none’ sentiment that seems to have consumed the pagan community.
Gavin and Yvonne Frost have argued that because people (I am one of those folk) write harshly about them, that those people can not be Wiccans (they used the term ‘non-Wiccan’).
http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0603.html
Now I do not buy into their interpretation of the Wiccan Rede at all, nor do I think that a poem written for one religion should be considered doctrine for all pagan religions. But that does seem to be the prevailing thought, that all pagans are sworn to do no harm and if you speak negatively about a person; well that is doing harm. Unless, evidently, you are speaking negatively about a person who is speaking negatively about a person. Yep, confuses me too.
My point being that most pagan folk seem to think that the Golden Rule of the modern pagan community is the Prime Directive of Star Trek fandom. I disagree, finding that it is at the very core of a religion to address moral and ethical issues; to be involved in the lives of its community, to define a system of right and wrong so that people of like minds can share kinship in its values.
So who is the real pagan? Well, both ideologies co-exist so I don’t think either can make claim to the title. Instead, I think new words are required and old words need to be better defined. This is why I applaud organizations such as CUUPs which is discussing the creation of a Universal Statement of Ethics for its ministry. Not something that is going to be shoved down every pagan’s throats, but something which defines itself so that people who wish to share kinship with people who agree with that statement can do so.
Basically, I conclude that organized religion does make sense but that because the pagan community is not an organized / defined religion one can not say who the real pagans are anymore than one can say who the real Christians are. Christianity also not being an organized religion. Not Catholics, well that would be different.
By A.J. Drew on Apr 1, 2008
What I find most fascinating about your post and the following comments is that what the Pagan community is suffering through right now (its growing pains, we’ll call it) is precisely what the Christian community stumbled through 1700+ years before (and is still stumbling!). Unfortunately, without a system of organization (I regret to say), any faction of Paganism has little chance at survival or growing in strength and influence - cohesion and a system of community standards are necessary - particularly if it is to benefit its members – or the world. This holds true for ANY religious system that wishes to thrive and be taken seriously by the majority (until it BECOMES the majority - lol!!)
Unfortunately, this means exclusion from the Pagan community - that’s right, INTOLERANCE (in a very real way) will have to be practiced in order to protect the well-being of its members (particularly vulnerable members, like children, the elderly, etc). But there is a nasty catch…and you only need to look at the world’s two greatest (meaning prolific) religions to see what you’re headed for - enter Islam and Christianity…
I disagree with you, though, AJ. I believe that the Christian church is VERY organized - this is evident in its immense power and staggering wealth (look at the power the Christian church has over elections, and in some cases, even the economy). This cannot be done without a very efficient system of organization, which in turn brings tremendous resources and influence. However, with organization, many terrible problems follow. Look at the factions and factions and factions of Christians (denominations) that fight and squabble over this and that, right and wrong, natural and unnatural - whether over doctrinal issues or power plays, it’s no secret that the Christian community (meaning its members), as well as those outside of Christianity, have often paid a hefty price for this continuous struggle (but, let’s not forget that the Christian church, despite its dubious history, has done tremendous good, too - millions of lives and communities have been saved by well-intended and benevolent Christians - it’s not all ugly…).
The Pagan community is no different than any other spirituality, and parallels Christianity’s struggles when it was once a “new” or emerging spiritual practice - the people are no different, their ambitions, hopes, wishes, and infirmities are no different. All religions reflect the vulnerability, triumphs, and failures of humankind because spirituality is HUMAN. Organization can be a powerful good, but it also presents many, many serious struggles.
I suppose the question is, “What does the Pagan community strive for and how can this be accomplished? – What is the Pagan community willing to sacrifice for the greater good?” In 200 years, where should the Pagan community be? Without a system of organization (or a national or world leader that proclaims Paganism to the official spiritual ideology), Paganism will remain a fringe religion, despite the many, many wonderful people who dedicate their time and resources in loving, educating, and protecting others - and building up their respective spiritual communities…
By LadyLong on Apr 1, 2008
Lady Long - In saying the Christian church is not organized, I am referring to the huge number of Born Again Christians who insist Catholics are pagan idol worshipers. Sure, there are organized denominations of Christianity, but each seems to think it is Christianity and the others are not. Abortion is legal in the United States of America despite pressure placed on Catholic voters and politicians. Yes, the average American will say they are Christian if asked but chances are what they are saying is that they try to remember to go to church around Christmas time. Again, there are organized Christian churches. I just do not think the word Christian, as a whole, is all that organized. After all, they don’t even seem to be able to agree on what Christianity is.
Where will the pagan community be in 200 years? Either extinct or evolved, depending on how one views things. I think the same is true of Christianity, Islam, and all other religions. Sure, there will be small sects of people who continue to practice what will be archaic religions but their number will be insignificant. Why? Because if something does not change, humanity will die.
If we survive, replacing these religions will be something which recognizes Jesus Christ as universal. Something that recognizes Allah as universal. Something that recognizes Odin as universal. Something which ends the War in the Middle East. Something which prevent the nuclear exchange which India and Israel might feel necessary to start (not with each other).
Something which causes pagan fathers like myself to say yes, Jesus Christ is my own personal savior and to see that same Jesus Christ within Lord Krishna and the other earthly representatives of the divine, both 100% god and 100% man, just like my children. Although I refuse to call them Lord Andrew and Lady Aubreyahna fearing it will go to their heads.
I do not think this will grow out of the pagan community. I think it will grow out of humanity and I think such is our mission. Not to rebuild the Tower of Babalon for the purpose of speaking to a god up high, but to create that tower (globalism) for the purpose of speaking with each other. To end the babble and really talk to each other. To ask each other, so does your god love your children more than mine?
That, I believe is our future and in failing that our death as a species.
Damn I am drunk.
By A.J. Drew on Apr 1, 2008
I AM THE GREAT AND PERSECUTED AJ FUCKING DREW.. come on man.. your brain dead.. FACE THE MUSIC.. you are a has been.. no SELF RESPECTING PAGAN wants shit to do with you after your EFFIGY fiasco..
PATHETIC.. JUST PATHETIC
By Shadowhawk on Apr 4, 2008
Shadowhawk - I have again and again said I am just a blogging blacksmith, so why you keep running on about how great I think I am, well it is baffling.
I agree 100%. Most people who call themselves pagans do not think there is a problem with what the Frosts wrote.
As far as what you call the “EFFIGY fiasco”, it was a beautiful service which has caused a huge leval of awareness within the pagan community. Although I agree that the majority of people who call themselves pagan (like yourself) have no problem with what Gavin and Yvonne Frost wrote, there is now a growing number of people who are aware and of the Frost’s disguesting book and teachings. There is now a growing number of people who are sickened by what the book contains, by what they taught. The number of people who despise the Frosts is growing every day and the “EFFIGY fiasco” is how the word got out.
As intended, it caused change in conformity with my will. Where before my actions, the overwhelming majority of people who called themselves pagan had either no idea what the Frosts had written or had no problem with it, now it is simply a majority and eventually the number will be large enough that people like you are in the minority.
In short, it worked exactly as intended and continues to work. Why else would you be here in my blog?
By A.J. Drew on Apr 4, 2008
Im here to MONITOR your madness. Or are you just aslick operator.. I think you have NO CLUE what True Paganism isabout.. You wrote a few books , you had a store that failed.. This is how you keep attention glued to yourself
The Frosts were here BEFORE you penned your first piece of rehashed crap
Lol.. EVEN Ray Buckland knows your full of shit
Check out the Magick Tv interview with Ray on YouTube. you might learn something
im not a dying breed.. But your type surely is.. Oh and i totally LOVE rhiannons BULLSHIT blog where she references me and some info i had about Witches Washington Weekend
You 2 are quite a pait.. Face it Drew.. The Frosts have won your war..
By Shadowhawk on Apr 4, 2008
Shadowhawk - Uh, 7 books under one pen name and one slip up under that pen name (should have been another one) and over 13 years running a small business. Neither of which is rocket science, but it is amazing what people like you would belittle.
By A.J. Drew on Apr 4, 2008