Raven Grimassi & Christopher Penczack befriend the Frosts
May 16, 2008 – 9:46 amA friend of a friend promotes Child Molestation
Someone at Pagan Nation wrote me to share a story about an experience with Frost supporters. She reports that someone from Arkansas asked her to be a friend over at Myspace.com. She checked the young gentleman’s profile out to discover one of his friends was an Arkansas based group called Children of the Night. On their list of favorite authors were, Gavin and Yvonne Frost.
If you are not yet aware, the reason so many now object to Gavin and Yvonne Frost can be found in their book, A Good Witches Bible detailed here:
She immediately wrote the young gentlemen informing him about what the Frosts have written and asked him if he supported such. He had absolutely no idea and does not support such. He does now and from what I understand he will be doing something with that information.
A few of you will remember my run in with Raven Grimassi over this issue. He had agreed to be a speaker at RWB 2007, discovered my strong stance against Gavin and Yvonne Frost, and refused to attend even though he was not asked to be a part of any protest personally. I later discovered his book published by Llewellyn Worldwide which had nothing but praise for Gavin and Yvonne Frost. When I pointed this out, Raven Grimassi said basically that it was not his fault, that the Frosts wrote that section themselves. He implied that at the time, he had no clue what they had written.
http://ajdrew.blogs.pagannation.com/2007/07/18/raven-grimassi/
So what has Raven Grimassi been up to today? Well he is hanging out with the Frosts at the Florida Pagan Gathering.
http://www.flapagan.org/info.htm
Raven Grimassi is 100% fully aware of the quotes in that book, writes books praising them, refuses to attend an event that protests Gavin and Yvonne Frost, but later goes on to speak at an event which promotes Gavin and Yvonne Frost. What ever his latest explanation is for his actions, one has to ask why he was lecturing along side Gavin and Yvonne Frost at the Florida Pagan Gathering. Since he took a moral stand against my protest against the Frosts and refused to attend RWB 2007, I can only assume that if he objects to what the Frosts wrote he must not object as strongly.
I knew he was speaking at the Florida Pagan Gathering some time ago. But it wasn’t until the conversation with the Pagan Nation member that it really sunk in. That PN member is what I consider normal conduct. Someone asked to be associated with her (a Myspace Friend) and she glanced at the person’s profile to discover an organization, which promotes Gavin and Yvonne Frost. She was shocked and expressed that shock. Raven Grimassi is asked to speak at the Florida Pagan Gathering, look to see the Frosts will be speaking there as well, and seems to have no problem being part of an event which promotes them. That is what I would say is abnormal conduct.
But this conduct is more than just normal and abnormal. You see when I say normal and abnormal, I am speaking about my sense of normality as determined by the people whom I surround myself with. Like that PN member who caused me to think on this, I seek to surround myself with people who contribute rather than detract from my life. I believe an association with the people who wrote that book, a book which seems to clearly promote pedophilia in the name of Wicca, detracts from my life. In the case of Raven Grimassi, I believe the association detracts from his books.
Ah, but who else was there?
These are the folk at the event I know for a fact are fully aware of what the Frosts have written:
Stephanie Taylor – Also a scheduled speaker at RWB 2007 who pulled out due to the protest of the Frosts. Also fully aware of what the Frosts have written. Her profile at the event page states: “Stephanie Taylor is a 3rd degree initiate of Celtic Traditionalist Wicca”. The Frosts demand that their tradition is the very foundation of Wicca and is a Celtic tradition. A very interesting note. It seems Stephanie Taylor does not object to the idea that Celtic Wicca was founded in pedophilic initiation rituals.
Christopher Penczack is another name that stands out. I have known Christopher as a good man. But I also know he is fully aware of what the Frosts have written, so I can no longer think of him that way because a good man would have protested.
As Christopher Penczack is most often known for his books on Gay Witchcraft and as there is a strong tendency of anti-gay folk to associate homosexuality with child molestation, I can not imagine why this man would think it was acceptable to use his name to further support the Frosts unless he too has no problem with what the Frosts have written, instructed, and refused to apologize for.
These are the folk at the event I can not be sure know what the Frosts have written:
Ellen Evert Hopman – Former VP of the The Henge Of Keltria (9 years in office) international Druid organization. She is a member of ADF and OBOD and author of several books.
Tish Owen – Coordinator of the Pagan Unity Festival
Spiral Dance – Musical entertainment from Australia.
My conclusion remains. The great majority of the Pagan Community simply does not care about what the Frosts have written. The claims that the Pagan Community is family based is simply not true. I thank the gods for the good people that I have found at PaganNation.com who do not fit into this majority, the people who are content to be an island of family values, of strength and common sense.
Good people come from all religions. Bad people come from all religions. Do not assume that your particular religion has only one of these two.
19 Responses to “Raven Grimassi & Christopher Penczack befriend the Frosts”
*standing ovation*
By Raineyes on May 16, 2008
I am not surprised and would even bet that there are many more authors you know and maybe even respect who have and still do attend events with the Frosts.
If you remember back when this all took place with Grimassi he and I were going back and forth over his words. Of course I got the flack from other PN people over “harrasing” him.
By Rhiannon on May 16, 2008
Rhiannon - I wouldn’t make that bet if I were you. I have lost a lot of respect for a lot of authors over the years. Most of the ones I adored before becoming published myself let their guards down once I had a few books in print. By the time I hit 6 or 7 books under the same pen name, I started to realize why it is that most pagans seem like complete rejects with no sense of morals and ethics, their authors are mostly complete rejects with no sense of morals or ethics. Note I said most, not all.
After that revelation, I started rereading and rethinking even some of the folk that I once adored. Scott Cunningham advises people to walk barefoot into the woods at night wearing nothing but a robe. Hon, the only time I would go into the woods barefoot is if I lived in the woods, my house was on fire, and there was no time to grab a pair of boots. And nothing but a robe? No no, been bit by a snake on the knee and don’t want a snake bite any higher thank you. On the other hand I hear there aren’t too many rattler’s up here in Ohio (lets forget the copper heads for a minute), if you would be willing to smoke out a tick or two from between my hairy balls maybe you and I should go wild crafting Cunningham style.
Then there is his idea of thanking the plant by digging a hole next to the plant and pouring wine into the hole. Give it a try, but don’t do it to a plant that you like because it tends to kill them. I don’t think it is the alcohol content. I think it is the high acidity of wine.
He goes on to describe wild crafting herbs by flashlight with a book to identify the plant. Do you know how many poisonous plants are in Ohio? Enough that you shouldn’t trust a black and white drawing in a book that you checked at night with a flashlight while pulling ticks out of your hairy balls and worrying about snake bites above the knees. How this man lived to the age he did is beyond me.
I think for the most part they make it up as they go.
By A.J. Drew on May 16, 2008
LOL oh my Gods I have been saying for years that Cunningham was a flake. Of course I caught flake for that too!
I can honestly tell you that Grimassi’s books on Strega are made up for the most part. He tries to mix Strega with Wicca. Now I am not saying you can’t mix religions as you know I believe that you can in some cases. But I can’t see Strega and Wicca.
Strega is a get even type of belief. Wicca is more of a let it go type of belief in my opinion.
Oh and I should have said in the previous post “respected” (past tense)
By Rhiannon on May 16, 2008
Hey where does Morrison and a few of the others stand in all this????
By Rhiannon on May 16, 2008
Rhiannon - Well now, maybe you are on to something I do not much talk about. Dorothy Morrison and Patricia Telesco have each advised me that I should not say negative things about the Frosts, described them as sweet. The list goes on and on.
Over the years, as my eyes opened, I realized just how entrenched the Frosts are. I gradually understood that these people are no friends of mine, nor are the majority of pagans.
By far, most pagans see nothing wrong with what he Frosts wrote, authors included.
By A.J. Drew on May 17, 2008
I suspected that was why Morrison and Sellars dumped the RWB last year. Yes they used the excuse of not having it in place early enough for them but that was a smoke screen. Plus they have demonstrated how much they have cared about all of us here on PN!
Oh yes they are busy showing at certain events. She seems to be in VA a lot this year…..
By Rhiannon on May 17, 2008
Rhiannon – I do not have a negative thing to say about M.R. Sellars. He has been as nice, friendly, and cordial as a person can be to me. Dorothy Morrison, I don’t know what to say. I don’t remember her much after the accident. She tells me we used to be very close. I just don’t remember.
I have correspondences from her in which she advises that I not speak ill of the Frosts and I have a faint recollection of something going down between her and Dorogoth at Pagan Nation. But other than that, I don’t really have a clue.
My life is kind of weird that way. Right after the accident, I do not know that I really noticed the memories I had lost. I was confused a lot. But over the last couple of years it has become very clear that either I have lost a lot of memories or there are a lot of people who are messing with my head. At one of the festivals I merchant at, I met a woman who was very angry that I did not remember her. Later, when she found out from someone else about the head injury, she apologized and explained that we had a short relationship a few years back.
So I try very much to tread lightly around and when talking about people I knew before the accident. For all I know, Dorothy and I had a long talk and she is dead set against the Frosts. I just don’t know. The emails I have indicate more that she thought it was in my better interest not to speak against them than for any other reason.
The truth is, it is in their best interests not to be involved with me. I am kind of a radical among pagan folk and these two make money by appealing to those same folk that I tend to irritate. Lets face it, when you are trying to sell books to people it is not a good idea to publicly befriend someone who tells those people that the majority of them are pigs. That being how I feel about most people who call themselves pagan, they wallow in their own feces. Not all, but most & I am fortunate to be involved in an online community where that observation is reversed.
By A.J. Drew on May 18, 2008
I can say that you and Morrison were very close as friends.
Other than that I can’t say.
I understand about the memory lose. I wonder if it isn’t a blessing at times to forget some things……
By Rhiannon on May 18, 2008
sorry to hear that A.J., *scratches head* i remember not too long ago i said the same thing about most people who call themselves “wikkan” note the lower case w (just for anyone i offend if you don’t fit this then ignore it)… but its true.. so many “playgans” run around claiming these vast and wonder powers and how they are walking on water… and how just because they drop the name of some neo-pop-vampire-pedophilic-werewolf-wikka auothor that it makes them some sort of expert on the matter… and then we have the little ones running around in nothing but dental floss (when in truth dental floss would probably cover more)haveing wild orgies… no wonder people think we are evil… Now who wants to help change it?
By Mask on May 19, 2008
poor poor AJ..seems all the REAL pagan folk have no problem with the Frosts.. people with a larger library of titles added to the many books written for the pagan audience at large.. And you just cant seem to get them to step into the glorious light of truth AS YOU FUCKING SEE IT.poor poor AJ
By Shadowhawk on May 19, 2008
It strikes me as strange, that there aren’t any people coming forward in the same way that the catholic victims of priests came forward. I wonder how many ‘pagans’ actually did what the disgusting Frost’s book said that they should do? I’m hoping it isn’t many. Perhaps the ‘pagan’ community has a huge mind set of secrecy? Kind of like those Polygamy groups in the media so much of late?
A friend told me recently, that her sister works in an animal shelter and there was a nice guy there that she wanted to fix my friend up with. Then they found out he was a teacher who’d been fired because they found child pornography on his computer. Sorry, that would freak me out, working with a pervert and I’d try to get him fired. I asked my friend what her sister now thought of the man and my friend told me that her sister thinks he’s a nice guy. My friend’s sister is a Methodist. I couldn’t even talk to the man let alone work with him. Doesn’t that sound strange to anyone but me? He’s a ‘nice guy?’ WTF?
I can’t help but wonder, do people just go into denial when children are involved? Would these people feel the same if it were a rapist of adult women? You see it all the time, judges let child molesters go. Why? Do they think they just won’t do it again if they let them go? Joseph Duncan comes to mind, they let him out after he was caught raping a young boy and then he murdered three people so that he could abduct, rape, torture and kill one of two young children. Shasta Groene will never be the same, she will live with nightmares and psychological damage for the rest of her life. All because a Judge felt that Joseph Duncan was fit to be released into society?
I find this incredibly ridiculous and incredibly sad that someone with such poor judgement sits on a bench with such power in this country.
I’m glad you’re feeling better
By Anonymous on May 19, 2008
Shadowhawk - “seems all the REAL pagan folk have no problem with the Frosts”
The majority of people who call themselves pagan have no problem with what the Frosts wrote. This I believe. However, saying those are the “REAL pagan folk” is kind of silly. In both ancient and modern terms, the word pagan represents such a diverse group that demanding one is “REAL” and one is not is rather silly.
I will gladly state that sexualy initiating children at the onset of puberty is part of Wicca and thus part of the modern pagan community. It is not MY part. I will also gladly state that allowing it to take place and even defending it is a large part of Wicca and a large part of the pagan community. Again, not MY part.
Mask - I have no desire to change a thing. The majority of people who call themselves Wiccan seem to have no problem with what the word has come to mean. I figure if you don’t like what the word means, just dont use it. It is just a word.
Anon - Why haven’t a lot of people come forward? Well, chances are there are not enough people sick enough to follow the dirrections who happen also to have been interested enough in Witchcraft to have purchased the book.
On child vs. adult rape. It tends to sound like child rape is punished less than adult rape. The truth is, people who rape adults are not generaly punished much if there is not abuse other than sexual abuse. Our culture does not seem to think rape is as bad as other forms of physical assault.
Perhapse we are more concerned with physical than emotional scars.
By A.J. Drew on May 19, 2008
Anon - On feeling better, I have a FANTASTIC neurologist and general practitioner. I had to translate something the GP said to apreciate it, but basicly she told me the Lord must have big plans for me because a normal person would be dead.
I translate that into I have children who will do something great but only if I give them the opportunity by providing for them.
By A.J. Drew on May 20, 2008
I think that as long as the Frosts are alive, no one will sully their “good name” for fear that it will affect their own books sales. As you yourself know, gatherings and conventions are how a lot of pagan/wiccan authors make their livings. They may not have another craft like you have to supplement their income. It’s the fear of being ostricisised themselves that keep them from distancing themselves from the Frosts.
Then again there is also the weight that is placed in the modern pagan community of where each persons heritage/lineage/initiation can be traced through. The fear that some pagans are “less” qualified since their tradition may not be “as real” as others. Since the Frosts claim that “REAL” and “TRUE” wiccans and pagans “must” and “should” do what is in their Bible, backs up the theory that if you didn’t do what they did in your own tradition……then you are “obviously” not wiccan/pagan/whatever.
I’m jubilant to be a part of PN, glad to know that I share the same ideals and morals as a portion of the pagan community that is represented online, and highly recommend this site to all that I meet. I strongly denounce the House that Frost built, and long for a day when those that fear the Frosts will finally admit they are wrong, were wrong, and are sorry.
By MajorTal on May 20, 2008
Shadowhawk seems to be of the mindset that there are real pagans and pagans who are not real. I wonder, who is it that makes that judgement? It certainly couldn’t be him, as he cannot write a logical and coherent statement or sentence. I just wouldn’t nor couldn’t trust someone like him with my spiritual life or the spiritual life of one of my children, hence he is a non entity in my religious world.
I certainly don’t want him judging me, as he seems to think that child rape, molestation, abuse and torture is just fine, if it’s done in the name of Wicca, er, the name of HIS Wicca.
As for your children doing something great, well, being a damn fine human being is a pretty great thing to do. I hope they do, and I hope that my daughter does something great with her life too. She’s been in college for Wildlife Management, she just has to be with animals, I can understand that. She wants to work hands on with the animals rather than legislation and gvmt. I’m very, very proud of her, I can’t imagine ever wishing for anything else than exactly who she is
She’s my best thing
By Suzume on May 20, 2008
Shadowhawk has proven himself to be nothing more than a closet wannabe wiccan which has latched onto to the frosts because it gives him attention while he continues sucking dry the bone morrow from his poor ailing mother. Should anyone ever hear of his mothers passing should be sure to contact social security in preventing him from receiving any more of her checks.
By Jack Frost on May 23, 2008
http://paganperspectives.blogspot.com/ I see Jack Ass Frost has been reading my blog, Good for you . As for my ailing mother, rather tacky to bring that up dont you think. Yes you got it rightim Wiccan.. not wannabe though.So if you just need to know.
Is an initiate of Greenleaf Coven, dont know who that is look in the back of the Second Ed of Drawing down the Moon page 514 were in there
16 years pagan, Former senior Druid and leader of Heartwood Study group Henge of Keltria
Ordained as Clergy in missouri in 1998
Ordained with ULC this year.I am respected in my community, having written articles and taught classes on various topics of pagan interest.Involved in local pagan Cable acess show since its inception.Have known the Frosts for awhile now.. So now what, are you going to belittle me some more..and to be honest JACKO , who the fuck are you. Oh and feel free to read my blog posts pertaining to AJ DREW.. There informative and just so damn true
By Shadowhawk on Jun 4, 2008
Shadowhawk - You are right, references to a person’s family medical challenges is not civil conduct. But I do not think the commenter was commenting so much as to your mother as to your leaching off of her. Now I am *NOT* saying you are leaching off of her. I do not know you. I am just observing that I think Jack Frost was not so much attacking your mother as he was you. I am sure you two know each other from elsewhere.
In so far as being Ordained, ye ye who isn’t. In so far as ULC, ye ye who isn’t. Henge of Keltria is a very impressive organization for a person to be involved with. From what I know of it Greenleaf Coven, is a nice family organization but like Henge of Keltria, being Ordained, and a minister in ULC; not Wiccan.
I am -NOT- saying you are a “wannabe wiccan” as did Jack Frost. I rather think the definition of words change with time and in my opinion you certianly meet the criteria I would use for the word, that being the normal use of the word in the United States (my community).
Now if I were in the UK or if I were a traditionalist, I would not call you Wiccan. I suspect Jack Frost is one of these folk. So in that respect, I do not think you should take his comment as an insult.
Everyone fights over what the word means. As an example, if you read some of the Frost’s writtings you would discover that you can’t be a Wiccan because you wish me harm.
http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0603.html
Its all just opinion.
By A.J. Drew on Jun 6, 2008