I do not disagree with your assessment that the folk at The Witch’s Voice have remained neutral. Its just that I do not think neutral is a good thing. In fact, I think neutral is a bad thing. Not long ago Iran hung to death a teen-age girl for crimes against chastity. She was hung in front of her school mates from one of those trucks that I see used to repair power lines. Maybe we should be neutral on that as well. Oh wait, maybe we should only be neutral about raping children and not about killing them.

Fuck neutrality. I want evolution. Not stagnation.

I have included your post next.. with my thoughts about what you had to say.
YOU SAID:

So I see no problem with killing if a person needs killing and kind of agree with the institution of the Texas affirmative defense which basically states it is OK to kill a person who needs to be killed.

You have the right to think that this is the way to deal with people. But, I feel it’s just socialized murder. And, I have mixed feelings about it. Maybe some people need to be murdered.. as we see done by States.. but, we also have seen many cases where people were put to death whom were later found to be not guilty of the crimes they had done. Do we really care About those people who paid the ultimate price?

I guess until such a situation actually touches us in a personal way we really don’t give it a second thought. So, yes.. maybe some people need to be given that ultimate judgement, but in doing so… never forget that there will be some who get caught within the Socialized murder machine who have no chance to reclaim their truth.

YOU SAID

Likewise, I do no think there is a problem with kicking someone’s ass who needs an ass kicking.

And, yes… there’s many people in the world who need an ass kicking I guess. I had a cousin who got his ass kicked by his parents every week.. and he grew up to kick other peoples asses, be grew up with anger, and he started ass kicking, and he spent years in jails for ass kickings.. and he finally died one night for trying to kick ass.. Days after his funeral, his parents were crying. “We always tried to raise him right, we always tried to make him behave and we can’t understand why he turned out to be such a mess.”. I just hated them! Well… maybe if they’d shown him some love, instead of kicking his ass all the time he’d been different.. Now he’s dead, and they are left with the guilt.
And Yes.. I agree.. some people might really need that ass kicking.. but it should be thought out carefully and be prepared to deal with whatever comes next.

you said

Some people state violence never solved anything. I respectfully disagree. Looking at human history, I see a sequence of events in which violence solved many problems.

You’re right. Human history proves that we’ve used violence to handle problems.. the stronger over the weaker. Violence, like many other things human beings do is part of what we are capable of doing. It’s a base primitive reaction to get what we want. We have that nature.. and like learning to walk, or to use language, we have to practice it to get good at it. Same with peace. We have to practice peace.

Peace is an energy that requires a lot of energy. To build anything takes work.. Love takes work and like building a house it requires time and dedication to a cause. It’s very hard to build something. But with anger, and violence we can undo in minutes what took years to manifest. To live demands tremendous work.. to kill requires nothing, and at the base of such killing is violence. Violence is so easy. I respect your opinion, and I have felt that violence may be the only choice at times… I think that; because that’s what I’ve been told. But, I make a choice to embrace my own inner violence and that power contained within me as a man in a different manner if at all possible.. and the more I work at it, the more violence I find within my heart within my manhood.

Many New Age movements are all about Light and love… and that everything in the universe is so pure and wonderful. No, and I think that’s a bunch of bullshit. Because, as wonderful as human beings can be, we are also monsters who will kill anything and everything in it’s path.

The universe… nature.. is at it’s base functions predator and pray. The big fish eats the little fish. The cunning ones learn to survive within the sea of the universe somehow.
Man, it so seems is the only animal who willingly can kill other beings “just to kill”. And we are doing a very good job in proving it.

You Said

Violence is what formed my great nation.

That’s right. Our country was formed by violence. We can’t get enough of it. We love to watch it on the big screens at the theaters. And we let our kids watch the wonderful nature of violence.. then, we wonder why the prisons of filled with 2 million people and counting.
Then, let us not forget about the American Indians, and that with total lack of compassion for those savage and uncivilized peoples who lived on Turtle island for thousands of years before our Great Nation was created.
Americans embraced the concept of “Manifest Destiny”. GO WEST YOUNG MAN!… and we did.. killing everything.. why? because it was ours.. it’s our Manifest Destiny..And with violence we totally wiped groups of human beings off the face of the earth. Nothing new… There’s nothing new under the sun… it’s very easy and requires no thought… that’s the way we have always worked and still work, cause we don’t want to put in effort to engage other parts of our brains or spirit.. it requires work..
Violence enslaved groups of Africans to do the labor we needed to be done. Nothing new.. same old practice.. and slavey is still popular today. We have slaves in this country and around the world doing the labor that we don’t want to do…nothing has changed in thousands of years. Just different faces, different wording.. different times…

Violence subdued anything that didn’t fit the “Social Ring of power”. Does it mean it was wrong? no.. not really.. it’s the nature of man… to expand and to take over other populations of human beings.. IT’s human nature… all so human. But, it’s also a collective choice we make.

YOU SAID;

Violence is what put down Nazi Germany. Now while violence has also been the tool of the unjust, the fact of the matter is if one side is willing to use violence and the other is not, well things do not go well for the other side.

Violence did put down Nazi Germany.. yes. But, it has in no way stopped Nazi thinking. and if the thinking doesn’t change.. then we can bomb the hell out of a country all we want and it won’t change… yeah, we wiped them out, but we didn’t change the thinking… And, Hitler’s goal was to take over Europe.. remove all peoples who were deemed unfit to live in such a society just as a million Jews found out. and he was going to create a Union by the use of violence to make European Countries into one central power… For all the violence, in the end, The European Union was created.. with Germany being at the head… Germany was rebuilt through the Marshal Plan so go figure we bomb them back into the stone age and turn around and rebuild them.. with our tax dollars. in a way, Some of the Nazi goals still manifested.. with our help. To top it, No European country really wanted the Jews.. so.. we created a new State for the Jews… “The final and only solution because in fact, NO country in Europe wanted the Jews anyway…In the end, did our violence actually change anything? No because we are still fighting and using violence.. the fight never ended.. we are over there right now, doing the only thing we know.. Violence. We just can’t get a belly full of it.

You said an interesting thing about our permanent connection to the Divine… in my understanding, this means that all things are connected to this Divine source… and being that humankind is given a special gift of being able to make creative choices due to that connection… In my understanding, everything is connected to it, and whatever we do to others, we are actually doing to our own beings…For me, the energy of life is one thing. and I see humanity as a living organism, living and populating a larger organism called earth, who occupies a place in Space and Time called the universe… WE ARE ONE BEING. my violence my hate, my sorrow… is the same as yours… as is my happiness, and my hopes for all peoples on this planet. Yeah…I know my hate.. and I know I have tremendous violence within my being… but, with careful thought.. I know if I use my intent to harm without real cause or threat.. I am only harming my own placement within the Divine nature of this gift of reality I chose to live in. I need to see my violence.. I would be a lier to think I am above my base human nature..

You Said

Consider the resolve to the problems with the United States and the former Soviet Union. Both sides were more than willing to use violence, no war took place.

NO war took place because both sides know that the use of violence will leave no winners at all. Knowing that.. both sides have used the resources of others in any way possible to gain an upper hand.. Both countries knew that they could in no way confront each other directly.
Economics of Capitalism finally proved the stronger of the two. And the Soviet Bloc fell. In theory… actually nothing has changed there for those people… and not much has changed here neither. If anything, it’s given our Government the freedom to really do anything it wants to any country or groups that we deem to be of use for our standard of living, and the American Way…

YOU SAID>>

Lay down your arms with something like The Wiccan Rede, convince a generation of people that causing harm is always wrong, and ya sound like those folk who think the meek shall inherit the earth.

We will never lay down our arms..forces within us can’t imagine such a thing because, we think that our country is the land of the free.. and it’s not. There’s other forces at work, and who are working fast to inch in all the rights that we think we have under the “Bill of Rights”.
The way I think of the Rede, is to take pause before engaging in a violent act that may cause harm to other beings. I don’t think it means that violence can never be used, but how to apply that force should be given careful thought before using violence as a tool to administer judgement. As for arms… anyone can get one.. and most never take a second thought as the blow the brains out of some night clerk, or taking a Sunday stroll through a mall… they or course have taken quality time in learning about their inner violence, they understand that no one will suffer from such actions… mothers and families of victims.. that was in arms length… But, our culture allows us to have any sort of fire arms.. I wonder why..

Ye ye, sure they will but not until the rest of us are done with it.

Yes… you are correct. Because in my reality, we are almost done with it.. really J.A. we have taken most of what this planet has been able to give… And, we keep on taking, and taking..It’s our Manifest Destiny… to take it. And when we are done with it.. to oil, the trees, the minerals, coal, and all the other things… Then we will know at last the truth of our collective choice as a country along with those of other countries had done. I have no worry about the meek getting anything. Cause there won’t be anyone here to get anything at all…
The planet has it’s own functions and awareness that we have no ideas about.. but, there’s functions such as earthquakes, climate changes.. and the violence of war which all chime in for cleaning house..War is such a function..disease another… when things get too dirty.. the planet can and will shake off the fleas and lice, with the very tools inherent in the human psyche… Read all the ancient scriptures from all traditions… all this is to come… when we are done with it..
It’s simple and everything comes down to what can survive and what will not. Planetary economics will be the winner. Not us. But we have been warned.. I guess. really I don’t know why I even care.. and I actually don’t care. I walk my path the best I can.. and I will die like a dog like the rest of humanity..
Thanks so much for you time, and openness to communication..
Anton

Not saying I am dumb. I just don’t analyze things as much as you obviously do. I see no reason to do so. Sick is sick. No reason to really examine it further. In so far as “harm none”, I don’t much take to the interpretation of the Wiccan Rede that so many do. The way I see things, the Wiccan Rede rather clearly states that in the situation where none are harmed, do not question the action.

“An it harm none, do as you will”

It does not indicate that one should not cause harm at all, but instead indicates that here are no victimless crimes. That is, homosexuality and other than main stream sexual or other conduct which might be a sin in some religions or even a crime in some juristrictions are not a sin in Wicca. In situations where harm will be caused by an action, one is required to consult his or hear heart… the permanent connection to the divine.

So I see no problem with killing if a person needs killing and kind of agree with the institution of the Texas affirmative defense which basically states it is OK to kill a person who needs to be killed. Likewise, I do no think there is a problem with kicking someone’s ass who needs an ass kicking.

Some people state violence never solved anything. I respectfully disagree. Looking at human history, I see a sequence of events in which violence solved many problems. Violence is what formed my great nation. Violence is what put down Nazi Germany. Now while violence has also been the tool of the unjust, the fact of the matter is if one side is willing to use violence and the other is not, well things do not go well for the other side. Consider the resolve to the problems with the United States and the former Soviet Union. Both sides were more than willing to use violence, no war took place.

Lay down your arms with something like The Wiccan Rede, convince a generation of people that causing harm is always wrong, and ya sound like those folk who think the meek shall inherit the earth. Ye ye, sure they will but not until the rest of us are done with it.

In so far as being Ordained, ye ye who isn’t. In so far as ULC, ye ye who isn’t. Henge of Keltria is a very impressive organization for a person to be involved with. From what I know of it Greenleaf Coven, is a nice family organization but like Henge of Keltria, being Ordained, and a minister in ULC; not Wiccan.

I am -NOT- saying you are a “wannabe wiccan” as did Jack Frost. I rather think the definition of words change with time and in my opinion you certianly meet the criteria I would use for the word, that being the normal use of the word in the United States (my community).

Now if I were in the UK or if I were a traditionalist, I would not call you Wiccan. I suspect Jack Frost is one of these folk. So in that respect, I do not think you should take his comment as an insult.

Everyone fights over what the word means. As an example, if you read some of the Frost’s writtings you would discover that you can’t be a Wiccan because you wish me harm.

http://www.wicca.org/gavinandyvonne/teaser0603.html

Its all just opinion.

anthro.palomar.edu/social/soc

So.. burn the books… burn them…. hate them..and what they did… What happened about “an it harm none”… what about attempts to heal this harmful information…
the general thought.. is as your opinion states. They are sick twisted Freaks… sure they are…
We can go to any Christian Church… and you’d be called the same thing.. but, that too is an opinion..doesn’t change facts.. that to the Church.. you’re a sick twisted freak..
in such a case if that happened, would that help to heal the situation.. to heal your spirit or would it in fact cause more harm?
Yes, that book has some twisted ideas..but I am here to tell you that what was written in the pages of that book..stayed in it.
I want to be introduced to any children of abuse do to this cult, within the years of 1976-1985.. can you find them for me. If they were here in New Bern..I really want to talk to them.You know what. It won’t happen, cause there never was any abuse.
I am very sorry this material has caused you harm…and that’s something the Frosts’ have to face. May I ask, did you ever know Gavin in person? did you study with them at anytime?
If so, if it turned out wrong for you I am deeply sorry for your pain.
He’s not an easy person to get close to, and encounters with him can be very intense. I just wish people could come up with a positive stance, and somehow engage the Frosts.. ask them as a community what can be done to change the harm done with this book, what they could do to help heal those harmed by this material, and what steps can be taken to see that such material isn’t introduced to the public again.
Maybe that would help.. Talking, communication, instead of name calling, like “sick and twisted”… methods like that just won’t open up anything. In my opinion.